h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

With regard to the former BNP guy found with explosives, that is odd.

Things moved extremely quickly on that case. Trial has been set already and the case is sub-judice. Incidentally, the trial has been set for the week before Nick Griffen's trial.

Yet there is a backlog of over 90 suspected Islamic terrorists awaiting trial?

Perhaps the guy doesn't have quite the gaggle of lawyers and civil rights campaigners to scream injustice in the press.

The Irish community did get a hard time during the troubles, or didn't you notice? Army raids on houses were an everyday occurrence and Irish people were discriminated against on the mainland. But there was a difference between the two. The IRA were fighting a political war, not a religious one. There were Protestants in the IRA and Wolfe Tone was a Protestant.

Lastly, the Soho Nail Bomber. Why not bring up Peter Sutcliffe as well? Actions by lone madmen with no conspiracies, no plotters, no support networks and not done in the name of religion.

Ed - "So it's legitimate to shout 'Fire' in a crowded theatre?"

When the smoke is pouring out, yes.

Solutions? How about a Mosque of England, with English sermons, British Imams and the intolerance to non-Muslims edited out?

Afternoon SWL,

Ah yes, but the 'apologists' would say that the actions you list are essentially because we have been demonising the perpetrators and their culture, as well as invading territories occupied by their brethren.

It is all a viscious circle really, but as you say, at last Ministers are beginning to allow the dicussion of the issues, rather than telling us what we can do and say, and at the sametime treating those to whom you refer as something particular and separate.

That is the original point I tried to make at post 1, 'though I confess that the BBC's decision regarding Fiona Bruce'c Cross would have been a better example of the positive discrimination that has so far prevented any sensible discussion.

Just as in Northern Ireland there will be bigots with big mouths and loud voices on both sides of the debate, but a debate it must be to lance the boil of fear, anxiety, frustration and mistrust of the two sides.

The first part of moving forward is to look back to see what we have all done badly, to create the problem - and then to talk to each other to find a solution.

Which again comes back to my first point that choosing to adopt a style or mode of dress which deliberately marks you out as separate from the majority can only exacerbate the difficulties in creating a ONE NATION situation, no matter how many strands that NATION may have.

Novo

Edward,
I haven't gone through the whole thread to find examples but found this one example in the first few posts I read. This certainly sounds like an attack on white people in this country to me.
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"And in white societies what that actually means is letting others have their culture on the side as long as everyone knows that white people are in charge and the non white people behave like white people".

OK...so what about *practical* solutions.

Imagine that you (heaven forfend) were in charge. How are you going to make your Mosque of England work? Forced conversions, maybe, with burnings at the stake for dissenters? Last time something like that was tried, it took a couple of hundred years of conflict to settle down. Or maybe you'd rather start with Mosque of England schools? Would you send your kids to one?

I kind of agree that government sponsorship of imams might work, along the Belgian model. Trouble is...last time it was tentatively mooted, the CofEs and RCs kicked up a bit of a stink. My should imams get their training paid for when vicars and priests don't (and are in short supply)?

Come, on...I'm serious. What's going to work?

SS

I read that as irony myself. I certainly don't feel attacked personally.

Any better examples?

Plus, it's quite clearly a comment on the attitudes of only at non-multiculturalist white people.

Ed, if you're not willing to entertain a British version of Islam that fits in with our society, are you thus saying that Islam is incompatible with Britain?

I certainly think so. In its present form it is a quasi political movement utterly opposed to democracy.

In the light of this, re-think how we view Muslims. Not as people with a different religious belief, but people with an entirely aposite political agenda.

Eward I am not going to read through the whole bloody thread! You asked for just one example, so I gave an easy to find one, I have backlog to read elsewhere.

Ed: >Plus, it's quite clearly a comment on the attitudes of only at non-multiculturalist white people.<

That depends. Is someone who believes there should be a dominant culture with sub-strands (such as Novo I think) a non-multiculturalist?

SWL: >I certainly think so. In its present form it is a quasi political movement utterly opposed to democracy.<

You're not seriously lumping all the Muslims in the world into this? Those who have been hoodwinked by fascist sects such as Wahhabism, yes. But they are in a *minority*.

SWL:
>>if you're not willing to entertain a British version of Islam that fits in with our society, are you thus saying that Islam is incompatible with Britain?

No. I say no such thing.

Firstly, I question the whole notion that Islam does not *already* fit in with mainstream British life. I know British people who go to mosques. I know people who go to Churches and to Shul. I don't go to *any* of these myself - but I'm as likely to share elements of my culture and values with any of them - or, indeed, with non-attenders. Yes, ther are some disgraceful imams...and Islam is a highly fractured faith without a hierachy of bishops...but then there are some disgraceful churches too. Obviously I'd prefer *all* religions to wither away, but that's by the by.

Secondly, a more integrated version of Islam is not going to be achieved top-down. Note my comment on its fractured nature. It's as likely as the Free Presbyterians joining accepting Catholic bishops. The way Islam works is that it is (more-or-less, but with some obvious complications) structurally non-demoninational. Adherents go to whichever imam best fits the bill. So, yes, more young, English-speaking, cuturally conversant imams would be 'A Good Thing' (assuming you believe that imams are a good thing in general, and that British born Muslims are entitled to expect an imam who talks tike them)..but people will always vote with their feet. As Muslim culture inevitably changes with the generations, people will seek out like-minded imams. Not the other way around.

Note that the 7/7 bombers appear to have been native English speakers, and it is to be assumed that much of their religious miseducation will have been in English. It seems to me that there may well have been factors *in addition to* religion alone which pushed them towards a mediaeval, death-cult perversion of their religion. After all - and you seem to have ignored this in recent postings - the overwhelming majority of Muslims have no truck with such filth.

Can you deny that Islam is political?

How many Muslim democracies are there?

>>Eward I am not going to read through the whole bloody thread! You asked for just one example, so I gave an easy to find one, I have backlog to read elsewhere.

Aye. But you picked an example which quite clearly *wasn't* an attack on white people, only on a segment clearly identifiable by context. Hence you failed to shhow an example, and I am entitled to carry on regarding your bizarre comment as utter twaddle. All part of the curious mentality that thinks that white people and their way of life are threatened by the presence of outsiders.

Ed - "the overwhelming majority of Muslims have no truck with such filth."

25% supported the actions of the 7/7 bombers. There are between 2-3 million Muslims in the UK. Between 500,000 and 750,000 agree with terrorism. That's a pretty sizeable minority.

If you're in a room with 4 Muslims, statistically one of them would support you being blown up.
A recent study of Muslim schoolchildren said 68% thought that Sharia would be a good thing in the UK. Only 8% said no.

Multiculturism doesn't work due to it encouraging seperateness, although loath to praise America too much, it does do the the old Stars and Stripes thing rather well where everyone seems to feel part of something more, here some want litterally want seperate states set up.
"Celebrating our diversity" by setting up seperate groups like housing support groups for just minority groups, as Diane Abbot Labour MP, I believe, said just alienates non ethnic minority groups since if you'r poor you'r poor whoever you are.

Edward,

You know full well that the only thing which will work is a healthy dose of reasonable talking between both sides, which ought to lead to an understanding of each others fears and concerns
I cannot recall who first brought up the 'thin white line', subsequently taken up by JCN., but is a valid point, it has happened, -and I can see why. It comes down to ghetto creation. Several posters have examined the hows and why's of this.

I assume that you and I want an open community in which we can live and associate with our neighbours? If so the only way to achieve this is to 'accept' the muslims who live in our streets , as I do in mine, as well as the Poles and Irish.

There is the current way, where large groups live in isolated ( self isolating?) communities within any given town/city, or we can try to educate ourselves out of this. One way of doing this would be to enforce the race discrimination law which already exist, to prevent the preaching of intolerance (if not actual hatred) by Immans in some mosgues. Similarly hammer the BNP. Let everyone see it as a level playing field and let the voice of reasonable people, who may disagree, be heard.

There is no magic wand, there is no quickie solution, it will take time. but the barriers to discourse must be taken down. Education is the only way to do this, and that means mixed schools - not racially or religiously separated.

Novo

SWL, you may be surprised to find I actually agree with you on one point: politicians should speak their mind honestly (yeah, right). If we don't like what they're saying then we vote them out.

But I do have to ask: how does a culture die? The only way I can see is if people lose interest in it.

Edward, there is no need to be unpleasant...

Hi SS

I think he (Edward) gets that way when pressed.

Novo