h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I can sort of understand the Israeli action. A few years ago, two Israeli soldiers took a wrong turn and were arrested by Arafat's police. They were tortured in the police cells and then thrown to a large crowd who tore them to pieces, set fire to them and dragged them through the streets. If I was in the Israeli Army, I would do everything I could to get my colleagues back.

What I don't quite get here is why Hizbollah have jumped into this situation. They were not personally provoked by Israel, and given Israel's record when attacked, they *must* have known what the reaction would be. With the rocket attack on Haifa they seem to be well prepared to ignite a much bigger conflict.

What was happening regarding the situation in Gaza had nothing to do with them. There were suggestions made on the news yesterday that this has been in planning for some months - before the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier in Gaza. It seems to me like political opportunism on the part of Syria, and perhaps Iran.

The whole thing smacks of real trouble, spurred on by significant financial backing particularly from Iran and Syria. The sooner the international community get involved in South Lebanon the better I think.

"What I don't quite get here is why Hizbollah have jumped into this situation. They were not personally provoked by Israel, and given Israel's record when attacked, they *must* have known what the reaction would be. With the rocket attack on Haifa they seem to be well prepared to ignite a much bigger conflict."

I've wondered this myself. Quite possibly they were nervous at Hamas implicit recognition of Israel and felt that other terrorist groups were going soft so they started a war hoping for an OTT Israeli response that would created a more hardline shift in the anti-Israeli groups. Quite possibly, though, they just wanted to start a fight.

"It seems to me like political opportunism on the part of Syria, and perhaps Iran."

Maybe. There's been talk about Syria taking advantage of this to re-invade Lebanon but I'm not sure I see that happening. I can't see how Iran could make any serious gains from this, I think they more fund Hizbollah than actively control them.

the suppose Iran theory is that provoking the middle east situation will distract world attention from their nuclear programme, especially as they have apparently hit difficulties and have been playing for time.

It is in their interests and Hizbollah is sponsored by them. In fact it may even have had its origins in Iran as well as Syria.

The thing is, if someone does something possibly intending to provoke a seeming overreaction from someone else, isn't the smart thing to do *not* to seemingly overreact even if one might feel some justification?

If someone was hoping to make people think Israel cares more for one of its soldiers than for any number of innocent civilians in other coutries, it would seem their wishes are being fulfilled.

What worries me is that no-one in the media is saying much about Palestine being subject to military occupation by Israel, supported by the USA. Is it a surprise that Palestinian 'freedom fighters' (and their allies and supporters) are doing what they can to persuade Israel to withdraw from their lands?

I know this is a big issue, and there are *many* points of view to be accounted for. But why is the 'freedom fighter' perspective not one of them? We hear only of 'terrorists' making 'unprovoked' attacks on Israel, which seems hugely one-sided to me.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

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Absolutely right, Pattern-chaser..

I think you need to do some background work (as do I). But didn't either Reuters or the AP news agency issue an edict not to use the word "terrorist" as today's terrorist could be tomorrow's freedom fighter?

There was a report from a news service today that Hizbollah have been spending a lot of money over the past few months building fortifications and military bunkers. This was no opportunistic attack - clearly they were preparing for war with Israel.

Terrorism, to me, incorporates one element at least that "freedom fighting" does not. Ideology. You can fight for the liberation of your homeland, but when the fight is carried out in the name of setting up a Marxist state or an Islamic state or some big government conspiracy theory (ie. Oklahoma), it takes on a completely different guise. You don't just want to gain freedom, you want to change people and enforce your warped view of society on everyone else. Ironically therefore, it's not freedom fighting at all.

Hi Woodpigeon,

Are you saying, then, that the Palestinian side of this war is aimed at something other than expelling the Israeli military from Palestine?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Perhaps I've read the wrong news reports, but as I undertand it, they wish to expel Israel, ... army, men, women and children, ... from existence.

"Terrorism, to me, incorporates one element at least that "freedom fighting" does not. Ideology. You can fight for the liberation of your homeland, but when the fight is carried out in the name of setting up a Marxist state or an Islamic state or some big government conspiracy theory (ie. Oklahoma), it takes on a completely different guise. You don't just want to gain freedom, you want to change people and enforce your warped view of society on everyone else. Ironically therefore, it's not freedom fighting at all."

So what about the ANC fighting against Aparthied?

They've been occupied and oppressed for 35 years. I think we should make allowances, and withhold our condemnation until they've driven their enemy from their lands. Once that has happened, if they still continue to seek the downfall of Israel, *then* we should speak out. Doesn't that seem reeasonable, in the circumstances?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Well exactly - that's the distinction I am trying to make. Freedom fighting and terrorism (at least how its seen post 9/11) are not necessarily the same thing.

It's semantics of course, and probably just mine: in the general sense, the words "terrorism" and "freedom fighting" will depend on what side you are on, and ultimately which side wins out. The methods employed are usually identical.

P-C, are saying that the Palestinians only recently adopted the idea of expelling Israel? it's been my understanding that they would have liked that from the beginning.

"Driven into the sea" is an expression I have heard often enough. I would if they can all swim, ... indefinitely.

Now, if I've got this right, Israel's expansion was as a result of lands occupied after it was attacked by several of its neighbours. Which is what Arnie is pointing at.

But isn't it likely that most of the people involved in that are now frankly a little too old to be driving anyone into anywhere?

Their kids are making the same noises admittedly.

"They've been occupied and oppressed for 35 years. I think we should make allowances, and withhold our condemnation until they've driven their enemy from their lands. Once that has happened, if they still continue to seek the downfall of Israel, *then* we should speak out. Doesn't that seem reeasonable, in the circumstances?"

No. Why not take the opinion that it's right to want Israel to leave your land, that it should be achieved by non-violent means and that it's wrong to want the destruction of Israel?

Immaterial.

Israel is not going anywhere, guys. Israel is there to stay.

What needs to happen is the resolution of affairs for the 800k Palestinians in 12 UN camps in Lebanon. So long as these people are left festering there, this issue is not going anywhere. Assuming HezbAllah is disarmed (I'd like to see who is going to do this ), I'd give it another 5 years before the whole thing kicks off again and we have a further evolution : PLO => Amal => HizbAllah=> some other radical Islamic pro-Palestinian movement... If you want true solution to the Lebanon/Israel situation, then Shebaa has to be decided upon and the Palestinian refugee camps closed down.

*shrug*

For the meantime all I can say is thank the good Lord for Israeli military accuracy - given the current wholesale destruction of Lebanon, to have 'only' lost 106 souls is as near a miracle as I can imagine.

Exactly what legitimacy do Hezbollah have for operating independantly of the Lebanese army under control of the elected government of Lebanon? Of course the Israelis will feel threatened by this 'loose canon' funded by outside states of Iran and Syria. So presumably the Israelis are attacking Lebanon as if to say, you're allowing this group to do more or less what they want, outwith the democratic process. Until you get some control over them we will attack you.

Of course one could say the British and American troops in Iraq are also operating outwith the democratic process. But it seems like Islamic middle Eastern states never really care much about or repect democracy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4314423.stm

I found this link explaining exactly who Hezbollah are fairly helpful as a starting point.