h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

It may behoove to point out that HezbAllah arose as a response to the 1982 invasion... You guys are great for trying to work this out but you are getting bogged down in details. So let us establish the current reality:

1. Everyone has done horrible things.
2. Israel exists and will always exist.
3. The Palestinians need to live in decent conditions with travel documents and the right to work. Ie not in UN refugee camps.
4. The Lebanese government has no ability against HezbAllah - never has.
5. HezbAllah does *not* represent the will of the Lebanese. They have support in the Shia sector only. They are a proxy of Iran primarily, Syrian barks in the background.
6. If the Christians rise up in Lebanon - there will be civil war - and the problem will *not* be resolved - just more ugly terrible memories.

... and work forward from there.

Reckon that's about right, Wilma, but to expand on a couple of points:

Recognising Israel's existence should not be equated with accepting their illegal occupation of the West Bank.

Moreover, creating enough living space for the Palestinians is not a possibility while most of the required space is being occupied by illegal Israeli settlements.

The basic requirement is a joint declaration recognising Israel's right to exist, and the immediate commencement of withdrawal from the occupied territories.

Noggin

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Absolutely. Thing is, we've been waiting 58 years for some of Israel's neighbours to actually acknowledge that. Instead, some absolutely refuse to contemplate this. What chance of it suddenly & miraculously happening now?

Well, hopefully the destruction of all the infrastructure in Lebanon will be as a boot oopt'arse for the Arab world. I am trying not to begrudge the price my country is paying for this necesary lesson. Let us hope the lesson is learnt. Sanioura is making the right noises but I fear he is lying. The Lebanese army cannot disarm HizbAllah. If they could, they would not have waited until now. If this is not resolved at the root, Lebanon will fall into civil war and Israel will bew harrassed again - and this time they will destroy the entire nation.
W

I'm likely to be totally wrong, but if the current explosions destroy your country, Wilma, then the Lebanese survivors of the world will be as homeless as, ... say, ... ??? Wandering in where-ever and what-ever countries they find a foot-hold, until ...

I know, I am totally divorced and outside of it all, especially since I dropped the uniform of a peace-keeper. But in some bizarre ways, it looks like a repeat of history. Just another face put on some of it.

What puzzles me is this.

SWL
In my post I pointed out two minimum requirements for a solution to at least one part of the problem in the Near East. I also made the point that (because of the mutual mistrust) the best thing would be for both sides to make their respective announcements jointly/simultaneously.

Any problem in principle so far?

The next post pointed out that we have been waiting 58 years for such an announcement from the Palestinians and their backers. Fair enough.

But no mention was made of the fact that we have been waiting 40 years for a move from the Israelis, and no sign of that either. Does this mean that you don't consider the illegal occupation and settlement of the West Bank to be part of the problem? Can you really envisage a fair and peaceful settlement that perpetuates that occupation?

Noggin

A question, of who-ever, please. What is the defining difference between territory gained by defence, conquest and war, ... and 'illegal occupation'?

I am sure the illegal occupation of the West Bank is a major contributary factor, but as I understand it that isn't what the current trouble in Lebanon is about, unless ....

Am I oversimplifying if I state that Hezbollah (sp?) is formed from the Palestinian refugees confined to refugee camps in Lebanon? The Lebanese have kept the refugees confined to the camps and allow Hezbolla free reign in their country?

I am nowhere near even being partly knowledgeable on this topic, but I am keen to learn.

Seiously, can someone give me Middle East 101, without any political bias?

The Palestinian refugees in Lebanon are in 12 refugee camps dotted around the south and eat of the nation - the camps are run by the United Nations and have nothing to do with the Lebanese as far as running them is concerned.

HizbAllah is a militia that arose when the Israelis invaded Lebanon in 1982 to fight Yasser Arafat and the PLO - then HQd in Beirut. 14,000 Lebanon died during that invasion. Then, as now, the Lebanese Government sat in Parliament wailing and wringing their hands. The Islaelis drove Arafat out and retreated to a self-designed 'buffer' zone in South Lebanon. They stayed for 18 years. This is Lebanese Shia territory and the Shia were not happy - the government were doing nothing to help them (a traditional governmental activity in Lebanon)so they organised themselves with the help of funds from Iran primarily and assistance from Syria. Thus was the Lebanese 'Islamist' resistance born - or should that be 'Lebanese' Islamist resistance?

HezbAllah kidnapped the two soldiers (they say) for two reasons: one is that htey want Israel out of the Shebaa Farms - a small parcel of land left over from their exit in 2000) and they want a prisoner exchange - something Israel did in 2004 with HizbAllah. HizbAllah is not the only group in Lebanon that is supportive of the Palestinian cause.

I am hard put to see how anything can be resolved long term if the Palestinian refugee camps are allowed to stay in Lebanon. It is almost sixty years now - the babies being born there are the greatgrandchildren ofthose who were promised so much all those years ago. These are not Gaza or West Bank Palestinians. These people are stateless refugees in no man's land - they have no travel documents and no access to work or a life of any sort. They are in limbo - still after six decades. No wonder the fermenting rage spawns such evil. I am also in support of a solution for htese people. Not in some 'oh gawd it is inhumane' way - it is too late for that now - it has been inhumane for too long. The simple stark reality is that the existence of these camps is the fuel by which Islamic Fundamentalist movements can maintain the level of support they have.

Oh, and HizbAllah are Lebanese Shia, not Palestinians, sorry, I did not say that clearly.

So why don't they give the Palestinians in these refugee camps Lebanese citizenship and turn the camps into proper towns and communities? It would be an elegant solution overnight. There would be no more Palestinian refugees - only poor Lebanese citizens needing UN Aid to build their towns, which I am sure would be forthcoming.

Many reasons:


Lebanon has less than 4 million population. The Palestinians would make up 20% of that. The UK has immigration in the single digits - what is it up to now? 5 or 6% I am not sure.

Economically the country cannot absorb them.

Politically it would be a disaster, Lebanon has proportional representation - so the President is Maronite (Catholic) the Prime Minister is Sunni etc etc according to the proportions in the population (oversimplified but you get the idea). The Palestinians in the camps are mostly Muslim.

The Palestinian refugees in Lebanon have traditionally been earmarked for repatriatriation to 'Palestine'. It is not surprising that Israel will not allow them 'home' - I don't think even the UN really mentions them anymore... Noone will take them - not Jordan (which has millions of citizens of Palestinian descent) and not Syria. Besides, that will not solve the problem either. Moving the camps is not the solution, closing them is what needs to happen.

I didn't really answer your question, did I? I will think on it a bit and do a bit of reading.

OK, I see why Lebanon doesn't want them. If they are Muslim, why aren't other Muslim countries offering to take them? Given the casualty rates in Iraq, 800,000 would help replace the citizens lost in Iraq over the last 15 years.

Think about what you are saying, SWL. Why would a Palestinian want to become Iraqi? Would you accept if you were in their place? What is the whole Palestinian struggle about? It is all about land, inherited ancestral land. Until that is understood, nothing else will make sense.

One point I need to make - Islam is not a nationality. Being an Arab (whatever that is) is not an identifier. I am classed a Christian Arab and I shrug. Try telling my brother that - he will talk your brain to meltyness about the Phoenicians and who the Arabs truly are (Gulf nomads). An Arab is not always a Muslim and a Muslim is certainly not an Arab they are not interchangeable terms. They apply to different sets of people.

But they are not going to get it back. Never. Ever. It's gone. By staying in the refugee camps they are consigning their kids to a lifetime of poverty and squalor. They might choose this for themselves as a matter of principle, but are they really willing to inflict it upon their kids and grandkids?

What about Gaza or the West Bank? *If* the settlers continue to withdraw from the 'illegal' settlements, there will be room for them there. You see the extent of the mess? I don't imagine anyone is doing anything wiht a clear objective. I suspect it has more to do with some sense of personal glory or even 'pocketlinedness'

But I thought Israel had pulled out of Gaza?