h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

...."not an act of desperation, rather an act of asymmetric warfare waged against us,"

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/06/11/guantanamo.suicides/index.html

Come again?

At the best of times, I struggle to comprehend US foreign policy but this statement has convinced me that I no longer speak English as it is commonly understood.

""Asymmetrical warfare" is defined as "a conflict in which a much weaker opponent uses unorthodox or surprise tactics to attack the weak points of the much stronger opponent.""

I suppose I could buy that if they'd committed suicide by attacking the guards, but by hanging themselves ?

That's interesting. Cos the only way that the suicides can be seen as an attack on the united states, or their forces, is if one considers it to be propagander and that the weakness they are attacking is the illegality of guantanamo bay prison, and that the attack itself is the action of highlighting its continued existence and conditions and illegality to the world at large.

And you can only get to this conclusion if you accept in the first place that guantanamo is a) illegal and b) a serious problem for the USA.

Which, given that it is the US authorities saying this, means they know darn well they shouldn't be doing this in the first place.

exactly, I think... I just can't get my head around the statement. Sounds to me like a total statement of failure and yet I cannot believe that it is that simple...

*back to the bbq*


W

just to say I disown my spelling of 'propaganda' in the above post.

<>

Well, exactly. Propaganda is the name of the game here, both for those who committed suicide, and in the use of the term "assymmetrical warfare" by the US (a "weasel" intended to make them look like the victims).

Noggin

As someone posted elsewhere, 3 suicides in 3 years compares very favourably with most prisons in the world.

However, I agree that Mandelson would be proud of this spin.

Perhaps so but I'm not exactly sure what that tells us?
I certainly don't think that it is an indication that guantanamo is a well run prison with a healthy respect for the prisoners and their wellbeing, other than basically keeping them alive.

I'm also not entiurely sure which prisons one could compare it with. Certainly not any prison that exists within a legal framework.

The prison camp at Guantanamo has polarized Americans to the extent that I predict it is the sleeping giant that is going to rumble itself awake before the general election and shift the power base in Washington. Not that any of my predictions have ever actually come true, you understand.

Suicide as an act of Assymetric warfare? Political correctness gone mad anyone?

Well someone was going to say it.

Anyways, I think the point is very much in the article. It talks about the prisoners all being committed jihadists, excetera excetera. Which may be so, but in that case they remain uncharged committed jihadists who have had no opportunity to defend themselves.

The US government needs to make up its mind whether it has criminals or prisoners of war, and then act as such. Claims that we're in a new age of warfare for which the old rules cannot apply don't make sense in my opinion. Is the Bush administration claiming that the invasion of Afghanistan was the first in which significant numbers of foreigners fought unofficially? This is why those Vietnam comparisons are more than just rhetoric: US "advisors" and Chinese Mig pilots.

I do hope your prediction comes true, Hyp.

Meanwhile the suicides come across to me as an act of desperation, trying to bring some global awareness and media attention to what is going on there, in an attempt to having it stopped.

az

The US military using weird euphamisms has nothing whatever to do with political correctness. Political correctness is about the use of language (which direct affects how people think) to give dignity to all and to promote equality. The US military use of language is just spin and obfuscation.

I probably shouldn't have had this thought, but I couldn't help think of the Judean People's Front's crack suicide squad in Monty Python's 'Life of Brian'. We'll kill ourselves - that'll show 'em!

I suppose that some people do kill themselves as an act of violence aimed at someone else (suicide through anger rather than despair), but I don't imagine that this would be common.

Is it just me or the current position of the US even more ridiculous a PR move.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5069230.stm

Sorry I should explain that was my critique on the over use of the term PC on here to apply to any instance of language abuse.

Socrates said it first though: "the misuse of language induces evil in the soul". Wish someone would throw that one out at Prime Minister's question time.

Morning Bouncy,

I wasn't going to say it , honest I wasn't

The phrase is yet another example of US "double speak", -like "collateral damage", which means killing 1000's of civilians.

Novo

"That's interesting. Cos the only way that the suicides can be seen as an attack on the united states, or their forces, is if one considers it to be propagander and that the weakness they are attacking is the illegality of guantanamo bay prison, and that the attack itself is the action of highlighting its continued existence and conditions and illegality to the world at large."

What the US spokesperson meant was that they thought the suicides were in the context of "martyring" themselves in order to inspire anger and further attacks on the USA. Hence, part of the "war" against them. Whether that is true or whether they killed themselves due to misery and despair at their situation is unclear and doubtless will remain so - hence the stupidity of claiming to know exactly why they did it (and the US spokesperson in question is not the only one to make such judgements). It's notable that President Bush's official pronouncement on the deaths, incidentally, is quite different.

There was an interesting discussion about this on BBC News 24 last night. Something covered which I've never considered before was that the reason the USA is holding these people outside of the continental USA is that the US constitution gives POWs and other prisoners enormous rights that the state can't negate. Hence the need for the USA to use Guantanamo Bay and "rendition flights" to treat prisoners like this. In Europe, which can be quite high and mighty about human rights, it was pointed out that certain countries (like the UK) can suspend Habius Corpus in the context of emergency powers and so there would be no need for any Guantanamo Bay - it's something our governments can obtain the powers for legally.

One thing that is becoming increasingly clear is that Guantanamo Bay is a part of the problem, not solution to terrorism. Bush himself seems to be increasingly making noises to the effect that the camp's prisoners should be charged and tried but there seem to be many in his administration (not to mention in the USA itself) who are unconcerned about the situation and seem unable to grasp that it does more harm than good and that it's "desperate measures" argument is looking increasingly tenuous.

I get the feeling that what they really meant that in no way was this any fault of the prison or its administration.
I can only hope that those spouting this either have some darn good evidence for it, or at least don;t really believe it themselves, whatever they meant by it.

Haven't heard anything about the suicide notes as far as I recall, except that there were some.

hmmm, they seem to not mean it anymore.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B2C9F2C7-9E05-445F-B64F-A9733FCF76A9.htm

BTW, It is also an interesting link as I doubt I'll ever see Al Jazeera quoting both The Guardian, Amnesty Internation and the Daily Mail all on the same subject and saying pretty much the same thing. I can't see that happening again anytime soon!