h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Sunday was St George's Day, and the flags were out on the streets.

Doubtless over the summer we'll be encouraged to show our support for England, by more flag waving and T-Shirt wearing.

But should we be proud to be English ?

What is estimable about the English, that other races lack ?

Or is it a combination of many good things that makes us the envy of other nations ?

Or are other nations better placed to talk about national pride ?

The best thing about the English is their neighbours

It'll be interesting to see if the America-bashers show up here and take some swings at England.

>>What is estimable about the English, that other races lack ?<<

We're not really a race are we? Just a bloody great mixture of folk, living on an island, which we share with Scotland and Wales. We have a rather colourful and warlike history, and have like most countries produced the odd genius or two over the years. For no reason I can logically think of I shall be passionately cheering on Rooney and the lads this summer, and shed the odd tear or two when we lose on penalties to the Germans....

What is so great about the English?

Hmmm Let me think why I was so desperate to move back here in 1990 (after an ill thought out decision to leave five years earlier)..

Pimms, strawberries and cream, humour, the Queen *ducks the * and before her, the Queen Mother, driving on the left, warm beer, white flesh in the parks on a freezing cold sunny spring day , black cab drivers, pub gardens, Richmond Park, 'misty' rain that goes on for days and weeks (which we hardly see now )...

Yep, you should be proud
W

Well I guess I have a couple of small issues with patriotism. To me it implies that if there're two people, one of whom is from the country I was born in and one who wasn't, but who otherwise have no connection to me or impact upon my life, that I should somehow care more about the person who comes from my country. The other is that it implies that I can somehow draw pride from the achievements of one, but not the other. I can't understand taking pride in other people's achievements at all (which is not to say that I wouldn't be pleased for them).

So basically I see patriotism as fundamentally irrational. Having said that, I wouldn't attach any moral imperative to that. So I'd say, wave your flag if you want, do your patriot thing if you feel like it, but there's absolutely no 'should', nor indeed any 'should not', about it.

Arnie, I rather think you will find that a large proportion of the kind of virulently anti american "UK croud" are also pretty anti English nationalist. Both coming form a particular strand of the left.

I am proud of my Englishness, but I have no limit of my criticism for the "powers that be" of english politics nor for extremely patriotic people.

My anti americanism is entirely aimed at the political establishment and tub thumping nationalists. Those I abhor everywhere.

"But should we be proud to be English ?"

Pride is a sin, isn't it?
I don't see why we should be ashamed of being born where we are born. I value the personal and political freedoms that livng in Britain affords me and many of the other cultral artifacts being born here as left as my inheritance. I don't feel the need to be personally ashamed of what might be seen past errors of the nation but would rather make an effort to see that future form of nation is progressing towards a workable ideal.

"Or is it a combination of many good things that makes us the envy of other nations ?"

I don't know about the envy of other nations, but our freedoms and econmic success and comfortable lives are qualifties many individuals in less forgiving places aspire to have or share and contribute to.

"Or are other nations better placed to talk about national pride ?"

Other nations are behaps better placed to talk about national pride because they are more ready to romantacise the nation's history. Or have clear definition of what makes them a nation, usually using ethnicity, language or religion.

I'm not sure what the point of national pride is. If pride ends up blinding us to history rather than helping us work together to achieve some worthwhile goal, it may be doing us a grave disservice.

Personally, I appreciate the advantages I have had due to being born in a particular time and place, I do like much of the landscape and weather of my native land, though I appreciate the differences of foreign lands.

I am interested in the rich cultural history of my nation, but also recognise there may be much foreign culture I miss out on as a monoglot.

I see both good and bad in the social and political history of England, and also understand that the some of the disproportionate influence England and/or Britain has had on world history in the last few centuries is simply down to accidents of geography rather than some special national will - being isolated from mainland Europe, it has been relatively free from war on its own soil as well as being a natural trading nation, making it a better place than many for commercial enterprises to grow in safety and for talented exiles to find sanctuary, and being (for its size) fairly well-provided with a range of natural resources made it a good place for a sizeable chunk of the industrial revolution to be sustained, needing little more than some available capital and a government system which failed to mess things up too regularly. (Parallels with the USA in later years are possibly visible to some people here.)

Whatever has been done for good or ill (as I see it) in the centuries before I was born, I can't really claim credit or take blame for even fi I may feel like doing so on occasion - all I really can do is try and learn from the past.
Even where I see an overall good in a particular area of history, I have to understand that other people may see the same area from a rather different perspective, so I can see a justification for caution in expressing an opinion, and a value in trying to understand people who think differently, who may have access to information I haven't considered, or which I have weighed differently.

Yes.

We can be proud of our remarkable contribution to science, engineering and technology, stretching back 100s of years to the present day. Think Newton, Darwin, the industrial revolution. English thinking has utterly revolutionised the world.

We can be proud of our food and drink. There is NOTHING like good fish n chips, roast beef dinner, or full English breakfast. Our beer is by far the best in the world.

The English language is a remarkable feat. Officially the hardest language to master in the world, it is now the international language thanks to the net. Many, many more people speak English than are English, which just goes to show how dramatically we have influenced the global culture.

We have a deep history, laden with tradition. From the Magna Carta onwards, the English have had an ingrained sense of freedom and justice and have made lasting contributions to democracy.

While it's not so PC to crow about it nowadays, England (well, Britain) has a glorious military history, and it's military is still eyed with envy.

We currently have (almost) the best football team in the world, and we came up with the beautiful game. We are the current rugby world cup holders.

The regional accents and dialects are a joy to behold.

The people are the most wonderfully eccentic, bizarre folk with a *highly* developed sense of humour.

To top it all off we're not very nationalistic about all this stuff. The English are understated and modest. We're not extreme. We don't like revolutions. We evolve, we don't (um) revolve.


Leave the country for over 5 years and the things you can be proud of come easily.


Ste

Morning Ste

I know what you mean, but I would characterise my own contempt for Dubya and President Bliar as global not national. I can't speak for anyone else, of course.

I am proud to be English and British. Our history offers much to celebrate and much to regrte, like most other countries. Our language is the most delightful mish-mash, gathered from all over the world. Our country offers the best of flora, fauna and climate, IMO.

Anticipating the forthcoming football gladiation:

In Gull-land! In Gull-land! In Gull-land!

[How did the humble seagull become such a national symbol, I wonder?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

I'm still unsure of the purpose of pride.
If I'm proud of the fact that some people I've never met in a particular area of the planet do produce many fine beers, should I also feel ashamed that some other people in the same area produce arguably many of the least good bulk lagers in Europe?
If I feel proud of Shakespeare, should I feel ashamed of Jeffrey Archer?

Does it need a purpose? Over-done, it can have negative consequences. In balance, it helps to cement and secure our society and the way we choose to live our lives. In this case, judging by results, not purpose, seems appropriate.



Yes. You may never have met these people, but they work (in part) for your benefit, and you for theirs, being members of British society.



Yea, yea and thrice yea!

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

"But should we be proud to be English ?

What is estimable about the English, that other races lack ?"

This kind of sums up what I dislike about patriotism - why should there have to be a 'lack' elsewhere for the English to be happy about being English?

Hear, hear!

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

>>"Yes. You may never have met these people, but they work (in part) for your benefit, and you for theirs, being members of British society."

As far as their beer-production skills go, they don't really work for me any more than a foreign brewery that I may buy the products of does - the connection is pretty tenuous.
As far as their being members of society goes, both the good and mediocre English brewers presumably pax their taxes. Feeling proud simply that my society has members in it would seem close to clutching at straws.

Personally, I'd rather save my pride, such as it is, for things I have made a significant contribution to. I don't really get the supporter mentality where people feel connected with events which they haven't actually had any influence on - someone who helped a local football team to train might feel justifiable pride in their successes, but the more distant the organisation, the weaker justification there seems to be for pride, and nations are getting pretty close to the most global/distant groupings we have.

One problem with an assumption of national superiority is that it can blind people to good things from elsewhere. In fact, one of the things that makes me feel most uncomfortable about being English are the small but noticable number of people who seem to be excessively proud and insular.

Kelli, not quite how I interpret the original question.

It's not about happiness, or pride. It's about membership of a group. Classic in group / out group. Just like the playground.

BUT that *is* entirely natural for human beings. That's how we, as a species, organise ourselves. We group, and sub group. It may not be a perfect organisational technique for the individuals, but for societies it seems to have stood the test of time.

So it isn't about being happy cos another group ain't as good at X as our group, rather it is just a way of saying 'I belong to this group' and showing it by exhibiting those behaviours. And it is no good doing this if no one knows that that is what those behaviours mean.

If someone has already taken a particular trait then it really isn't much use for our group to take that trait unless we want direct competition with the existing group. So any group tries to choose traits that aren't taken by others, or which they can prove they are better at, and define themselves by their differences. And this is the key point when it comes to group membership, it is how group A is different to all the other groups that matters as much, if not more than, what that group actually stands for.

I also find it interesting that many people who promote the equality of humans and their societies (and I am making a general point here, not talking about Kelli!) say we should celebrate our differences. Yet what national pride seems to be about, in its most idealistic and non bigotted form, is exactly that. The only difference I can see is that national pride celebrates *our* differences and the equality ideals are about celebrating *your* differences.

Sorry, bit of a ramble that one, probably a bit OT too!

Ictoan - I just quoted the original question, I didn't interpret it!