A Conversation for The Graeco-Persian Wars: The Combatants

Phallanx writer - you've made a mistake

Post 1

Asmodai Dark (The Eternal Builder, servant of Howard, Crom, and Beans)

Okay so I wrote the Phallanx entery that you referanced but you've made some mistakes - I've been working on a Spartan entery for awhile now as well as one on thermopylae.

"All hoplites were free citizens of their city, and had to provide their own equipment (which was certainly not cheap)."
I was about to say this was wrong but its right Spartans were Homoioi not hoplite.

"Officers were not a vital part of any Greek force. The phalanx required little directing - only an enemy in front of them"

No thats wrong. In fact thats incredibly wrong. Thermopylae wouldn't have worked without key officers to direct the greeks to retreat and reform. Whilst the retreating bit isnt hard, its difficult to stop it becoming a rout without officers in place to say 'oi lads, turn around'.
Just to clarify although you probably know this, the greek force was around 20,000 strong with only 300 spartans, so there must have been officers from other fractions directing battle.

"Greek light troops were very few in number. Light cavalry (prodromoi) was used for scouting and driving off enemy light troops, and light infantry (peltastai, or peltasts) were skirmishers who did not take part in any heavy hand-to-hand fighting."

For the life of me I can't remember what the Spartan slave/working class were called (helot i think), but they were used in large numbers, especially in later years when there were fewer Homoioi for sparta to field.

"The Greek navy was dominated by the trireme, a fast, light ship with three banks of oars and a ram at the prow for sinking enemy ships. Shields were often hung on the rails along the sides of the ship to offer some protection against missiles for the soldiers on deck."
To my knowledge, although this could be a myth, Sparta never used ships for combat whilst Athens excelled at using ships hence the rivallry and why they were so opposed - whilst Sparta had easily the strongest army, it could never keep itself supplied so far from home to conquer athens (until not long after the persian wars iirc)

"A notable expection was Sparta, who nearly always sent one of its two kings to command its forces."
Hmmmm. When Leonidas went to Thermopylae he only took 300 bodyguard because thats all he was allowed to take - the 300 were his personal bodyguard. The Spartan army at the time though was estimated to be around the 10,000 mark so it makes you wonder how much control these men really had over there own forces and there own actions. Leonidas wasn't allowed to take the army because the persians would possibly invade Sparta, but surely they would have sent more (say, 800 for a few good phallanxes plus helots) if he was one of only two kings...


There not really mistakes, there more nigling bits that a spartan fanboy isnt happy with smiley - smiley


Phallanx writer - you've made a mistake

Post 2

laconian

This isn't an entry specifically about Sparta; some of the stuff I've included is general information about the Greek Cities.

I take your point about the officers, though. I'll change it. Is it accurate to say that, due to the training the hoplites recieved, they could be relied on to do some things without the need of a command? Things like dressing the line, maintaining the cohesion of the phalanx and the like.

""Greek light troops were very few in number. Light cavalry (prodromoi) was used for scouting and driving off enemy light troops, and light infantry (peltastai, or peltasts) were skirmishers who did not take part in any heavy hand-to-hand fighting."

For the life of me I can't remember what the Spartan slave/working class were called (helot i think), but they were used in large numbers, especially in later years when there were fewer Homoioi for sparta to field."

This entry is about the Greeks at the time of the Persian Wars, when the Greek armies were almost exclusively hoplites (from what I know, anyway).

I'm not sure about the bit about the Spartan kings. While the kings might not have had complete control over the reasons for going to battle, I'm pretty sure they had command of the army during the battle itself.


Phallanx writer - you've made a mistake

Post 3

Asmodai Dark (The Eternal Builder, servant of Howard, Crom, and Beans)

Oh no sorry I think you may have misunderstood me. What I mean is, there cant have been a single man in command of a force, but I dont think the training would have been to officer standard because in some states it was national service (theres notes about some scientists being hoplites, as well as senators). Perhaps there were maybe a dozen officers, with drums and horns dictating the movement of battle. Its just that you need officers to lead troops - whether that be in a practical sense ('stay here, hold the line') or a moral sense ('come on lads lets tw*t 'em!'), which drums/trumpets cant do.
Its worth a bit more investigation


Greek armies at the time of the persian wars -
Aye sorry I rambled, my bad, although the spartans are worth a mention of note if nothing more then for thermopylae, and because they were the only regular trained soldiery. Whilst hoplites were basically conscripted civillians, Homoioi (Spartan soldiery) was trained from birth and served till he was too old to carry his shield although that sometimes meant he simply did something else in the force. Sure the greek armies may not have had regular officers like a modern army, but if spartans about chances were they got control of the force and used officer contingents because of there way of war.

Spartan Kings - Yeh they would have if they were present in a greek army. Other states outnumbered the spartan contingent at themopylae at least five to one (thebes sent 10,0000 iirc), they differed to a spartan commander because of there experience/skill.



Phallanx writer - you've made a mistake

Post 4

laconian

I've made some changes regarding officers. I haven't mentioned Thermopylae, because I plan to include a whole entry on it (as part of this project: A9820992).


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