h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Sorry, Chris, but what keeps a "work in progress" from being a "whole individual" too? Can't individuals progress? Can't a work be individual? Can't you individually progress?

I just can't see it.

Or do you mean you are a "collective" work in progress?

Like, "I have a double personality, and so do I".

twinsouls

I think the important word in Chris's post was 'whole' not 'individual'. Perhaps 'completed' might be a better word?

I dunno, I am not Chris.

Ben

"prayer is... a very good way to gain perspective on a problem, thereby removing a lot of anxiety from any situation": hmmm, and where is that anxiety coming from? What are you anxious for?

To me, prayer seems much more a way to transform your problems in somebody else's problem, like God's problem. What about self-responsability? Talking of self-esteem, do you really need to call God on the pearly telephone to get "perspective"? What do you pray him for?

The fact that so many people uses prayers for it (and they work!) seems to me a clue about their lack of self-esteem and responsability. As an old Arab proverb says, "Have faith in God, but tie your camel. If no intervention by you were required, what was the camel's rope created for?".

Just an opinion, eh? I know it. And it may seem cynical, but it's NOT.

twinsouls

Hi Ben,
good point, but a little philosophical. In a sense, NOBODY is "completed". But every one is, at the same time. Is as completed as he/she can at that particular moment. And also, who can say when somebody is "completed"?

For me, self-esteem is to feel you're completed, meaning you don't "need" anybody else to exist and be worthwhile.

And you can feel it at any moment. Just accept who you are at that moment. Isn't it enough?

twinsouls

Ben - Hadn't realised Tango was a teenager.


Twinsouls, to be honest I'm not entirely sure I've understood your point. If you're suggesting that, if I was a fully confident and capable person then I wouldn't have any anxieties and I wouldn't need to pray, well, you're probably right.

Sadly, I'm not. I often have problems that I'm not sure how to deal with. I thought most people did. It's not just me, is it?

Do I need to pray to get perspective. Well, obviously I don't *need* to. I survived for several years without ever uttering a prayer. I'm just saying it helps. Making life easier isn't the same as giving up responsibility for it.

As to what I pray for. I'm not telling you.

Yes, I'm 15 years old, but what has that got to do with anything?

Tango

ok, i've just read the last page (i clicked on the latest post link, so didn't see it first). There is one and only one thing the same about all christians and that is their belife in god and christ. That is what i don't respect them for, so for all extents and purposes they are all the same.

Tango

Cleo,
yes, I'm suggesting exactly that, and no, it's not just you!
"I often have problems that I'm not sure how to deal with". Welcome in the most "populated" club on Earth... This is everybody's daylife deal. But, so what? You don't need to worry about it! Just do what you can at that moment, and no hindsight, please!
When I asked what do you pray for, I used the wrong words. I meant something like "for what reason do you pray". Or maybe "what would happen if you don't pray?". This is the problem with words: each one has thousands of nuances, too many meanings to think we can really understand each other.

Isn't it wonderful?

twinsouls

Sorry, Twinsouls. I misunderstood the last bit.

Obviously, because I have a faith, I pray for lots of reasons to do with that. I was suggesting, though, that even for non-Christians, spending a few moments running through the things that are happening in your life is a positive thing to do.

Thinking about the things that are going well and the problems that have been solved increases my confidence in being able to solve the next thing that comes along. In the old days I rarely thought about sucesses, only the failures. The old fashioned advice was 'Count your blessings'

Looking at things that are worrying me, and going through them in a logical manner has a way of reducing them. It makes them linear and manageable, instead of surrounding. (Does that make sense?)

I knew a woman who had a set of little dolls by her bed. You were supposed to tell one of your problems to each of the dolls, and while you were asleep it would go off and try to solve it for you. She swore it worked. I think it did work, but was nothing to do with the dolls.

Hi Tango

Define: "their belife in god and christ" please.

I think you will find that WHATEVER definition you give for that phrase that there will be Christians who do not fall into that category.

Some don't believe that christ was god incarnate, some do.
Some don't believe in the virgin birth, some do.
Some don't believe in the ressurection, some do.
Some don't believe in the life to come, some do.
Some don't believe in judgement, some do.
Some don't believe in predenstination, some do.
Some don't believe in the trinity, some do.
Some don't believe in the miracles, some do.

Tango - if I was to say 'all teenagers make sweeping generalisations and are so blindy arrogant that I cannot possibly respect their opinions' I would be making a sweeping generalisation as offensive and inaccurate as the ones you make about Christians.

B

I was talking about mainstream christianity. By definition christians belive in christ (hence the name) and God. There are always cults/sects that belive different things, but as far a mainstream christians go I think you'll find I have my facts straight.

I have been thinking about this respect thing, and i think i can clarify my opinions slightly, although I respect christians (and other religious people) as people, I do not respect their faith or anything in their life that is linked to their faith.

You example about teenagers is completely different. No one chooses to be a teenager, everyone chooses to be (or not to be [no reference to shakespear intended]) a christian. Therefore I do not respect their choice, rather than an unavoidable quality they have.

Tango

Tango wrote:

"There is one and only one thing the same about all christians and that is their belife in god and christ. That is what i don't respect them for, so for all extents and purposes they are all the same."

Tango

It would be just as inaccurate to say that "all 15-year-olds are the same" or indeed that all 43-year-olds (I allude to myself!) are the same!

Chris
(still deep in thought!)

Good to see you being a bit more specific in your generalisations and your thinking Tango. And yes - respecting people as people separately from their beliefs is more or less where I am. Pheroneous and I had a discussion about that further up the thread.

I am still not sure what it means to 'believe in' christ, though. What do you think you mean by that? My guess is that it is a big lable in your mind which hides - who knows what.

Re 15 year olds. My example of that as a piece of bigotry still stands. Not all 15 year olds are arrogant, not all of them generalise widely. And to say that they do is just as inaccurate as to say 'all Christians, etc etc'. The comment is about bigotry, not about the bigotee, if you see what I mean.

Good to see you are thinking yourself out of what could have been a very bigoted corner.

B

How so? All christians believe in crist and god by definition, the same as all teenagers are aged between 13 and 19 and all 43 year olds have been alive for 43 years. Those are the definitions of the terms.

Tango

Twinsouls

That'll teach me to be more careful with throwaway lines!

I suppose what lay behind my phrase a "whole individual" was the idea that we are not truly whole until we reach heaven (the bit in 1 Corinthians 13 about seeing dimly in a mirror as against seeing face to face, if you want a Biblical reference!!) But there I go introducing concepts like heaven ...

The idea of individual progress is fraught with "issues" too! I really only meant that I am not yet the finished article - "God's not finished with me yet!" Those who know my sometimes volatile personality would probably agree, but might urge God to get on with it, and suggest some areas for urgent attention!

From a self-esteem angle, I accept what you say, that one can be effectively "whole" this side of heaven, or should I say "more whole" or "more complete"? I am certain that my self-esteem has grown since I have become a Christian - and I don't feel I have surrendered any of my individuality, or even my desire to question and think.

Hope I haven't misrepresented or misunderstood either of you

Chris

"How so? All christians believe in crist and god by definition,"

"believe in christ"

(This is not a challenge to christians here - just a way of considering whether or not the phrase 'believe in christ' has any meaning as a generalisation).

believe that there was a preacher in first century judea and palestine whose ministry was recorded by the four evangelists? - y / n

believe that that man was capable of and did perform miracles such as the transformation of water into wine and walking on a lake? - y / n

believe that that man performed various healing miracles, including raising a man from the dead? - y / n

believe that he was an important ethical teacher? - y / n

believe that he was born of a virgin, and the incarnation of god on earth? - y / n

believe that his birth was predicted by old testemant prophets and contemporary astologers? - y / n

believe that he rose to life again after his death? - y/n

believe that his death and resurrection was of divine importance, and changed the relationship of god with the world forever? y/n

etc
etc
etc

Now all of the above are reasonably mainstream things, but any individual christian is likely to give a mix of yesses and nos to the above questions.

I really think that saying 'believe in christ' is too much of a generalisaton to have any meaning.

Likewise

'believe in god'

believe in a creator? - y/n
believe in an omnipotent god? - y/n
believe in an omniscient god? - y/n
believe in a benevolent god? - y/n
believe in a god with whom it is possible to have a personal relationship? - y/n
believe in a judgemental god - y/n?
believe in a god who will punish unrepented sins - y/n?
believe in a god who gave his only son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish - y/n?

Once again the word 'god' has too many different sub-meanings for it to be useful.

Of the 9 characteristics there, I can believe in one of them only, I consider another three characteristics to be plausible when applied to an infinite intelligence, but irrelevent. The remaining 5 I think are bunk.

So if I say 'I believe in god' I believe in a very different god from Chris's god or from Cleo's.

What I am trying to do here, Tango, is show that some generalisations are too big to be useful, while being just big enough to be dangerous.

All the best, and good to see such steady replies from you.

B

Shame I can't count, though, isn't it?



B
who clearly doesn't know how many beans make five

You shouldn't have mentioned your mistake, I hadn't noticed, and i doubt anyone else would have added them together and check it all totaled up right!

I see the point you are making but I think it is irrelevent. I think that believing ANY of those types of god/christ is, for want of a better word, foolish. With exception to the first one about christ, because it was about Jesus, not christ, christ means Messiah, if you believe the Jesus was just a regular preacher then you do not believe in christ.

Tango

Attempts to turn the religion debate into a black & white issue are understandable, but ultimately doomed to failure. A brief glance at any history book should prove that.

It's natural to want to classify and compartmentalise everything. It makes it easier to deal with. Unfortunately, like most things in life, it's way more complicated than it first appears.

It's also easy to dismiss everyone who holds a different view as stupid. It's not very illuminating though, is it? In fact, it leads to a blind ignorance as deep as that of any bible belt anti-Darwinist.

Important to keep in open mind, in my foolish opinion.

I agree it is important to keep an open mind, and I think i have an open mind, if someone could give me specific evidence about the existance of God (or Christ or Allah or Adam and Eve, whatever) then I would certainly reconsider my position.

I think it is more black and white than you say. When there is no proof either way logic dictates that the more sensible, simple, obvious choice, and the one with more evidence to support it, should be choosen as the correct answer until certain proof can be found. By definition logic is black and white.

There is a difference between a different view and blindly accepting something as true. If someone has a different view as to why the 2nd world war started, I am willing to accept that they have another view as long as it makes sense and they can back it up with evidence, the same is true of religion, I would except their views if they made sense (according to logic, that it) and were backed up by evidence, no-one has shown me evidence, so unless there is evidence that I don't know about (and if there was I expect it would be widly spread among the world as soon as it was found, almost all religions want everyone to agree with them, so they would not keep it quiet) people must be believing blindly.

Ben, I want to make it clear, I have not changed my opinions throughout this discussion, I was simply changing the way I expressed them to make it clear. I am willing to be persuaded to change my opinions, but no-one has don't that yet.

Tango