h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Ormondroyd wrote:

"Any self-esteem based on something outside yourself is dangerously fragile. If all your confidence is based on the belief that you're worthwhile because God loves you, then what happens if you lose your faith?"


True, loss of faith is a danger (for a whole host of reasons, not just connected with self-esteem). But you can't base your self-esteem entirely within yourself, as precisely when you are at your lowest, you are least able to help yourself! (And I'm not sure I followed that )

What I think I am trying to say is that individuals have an objective value, because of who God made us. We can hold on to that, even when subjectively we feel totally worthless. But we need the help, love and support of others, because as you imply, when we are at our lowest, our faith plummets too.

Chris

There is a concept which is referred to as a 'locus of control'. A locus of control can be internal or external. If you have an internal locus of control, you make your own mind up about things, you don't need tacit or explicit permission to do things, and you take control of your own life and responsibility for your own actions. If you have an external locus of control, then you follow the guidance of your partner, your friends or your peer group. Most people have a mix of internal and external loci of control; for example mine is much more internal since I became single again.

This seems to me to be allied to having an internal or external locus of personal acceptance. Perhaps some of the people who turn to religion need the external sense of acceptance which comes from being a beloved child of a loving god. It is quite clear that this is not true of all practicing theists. But I do wonder.

I am not entirely sure where this thought is leading to, so I shall sign off now.

B

I don't believe that a God made us, but other than that I agree with just about everything Chris said. I would just emphasise that I asked: 'If *all* your confidence is based on the belief that you're worthwhile because God loves you, then what happens if you lose your faith?'

I agree that not all of a person's self-esteem can come from within; at some point, you're going to need some external affirmation. I understand what Chris means about loss of faith leading to lack of confidence. I have a secular faith in humanity, which often gets severely tested by the way some people behave. When that happens, I'm generally at my least positive and confident.

I agree that to a lot of people religion can be benifical. But those benifits can also be got by believing in yourself, and others, rather than in a God.

Someone said saying Christianity was created for money is a stupid idea. I think someone that belives a big old man lives above the sky and made an entire world in 6 days against ALL evidence, should be very careful what ideas he calls stupid. (I will also point out at this point that the Christian God is clearly a sadist and a meglomaniac. If a person had those qualities they would be hated, so if God does exist he also should be hated, not loved. If you wish to argue with me about this then feel free, debating religion happens to be a favorite pasttime of mine) Back to money. How do you know the aposltles even existed? And if they did how do you know their stories are true? There are quite a few contradictions in the Bible, some even contradict mathematical constants (Some boat was supposedly 30 cubits circumference and 10 cubits diameter. This implies pi=3.) Even if it was not made for money, maybe it was made for fame. People still know about them 2000 years later.

The girl mentioned that became a minister. I would disagree that her faith improved her life. I would say she has wasted her life, devoting it to a falacy.

I will come back later to continue this interestion discussion, but I have other things to do now.

Tango

When the section of the bible that equated pi with three was written, people didn't have advanced calculating machines. They had to estimate. Maths was after all very primitive at the time, hence the use of cubits for maeasurement. All this is is early people doing what they could with the early mind. Maybe 3 is rather too much of a rounding down, but the great Greek philosophers rarely went above three decimal places.

If I believed in God, I'd probably have great pleasure in defying a tyrant that threatened me with eternal suffering in hell, but I don't. I'm an atheist.

With respect, Tango, you know f**k all about Anna's life.

Ben

Yes, it's patently obvious from what Ben said that it improved her life. Whatever makes you happy and works for you makes you life worth living. You can't be wasting your life if you're happy with it. You certainly are if you're not.

Ben, I do not find the use of the work "f**k" at all respectful. If you are going to flame someone do not try to cover it with meanless polite words. I was hoping this would be a adult debate, but it seems you are not capable of that.

Leg, I think there is a big difference between a good and happy life, and a worthwhile one. Anna's life is certainly better and happier than in used to be, that much is obvious, but I do not think it is a worthwhile life.

dpen2000 has asked me on my personal space to explain my reference to the Christian God as a sadist and megolamaniac, I will do that here so everyone can see it, but I do not have time now. I am going away for the weekend and will continue this conversation on Sunday evening (GMT).

Tango

PS If you want to read a very interesting article on anti-religious views, I suggest you buy DNAs book "Salmon of Doubt", there is an article in it in which he explains why he does not agree with the idea that religious views should be respected and not questioned, anymore than political views etc. It is a very good book anyway, even if you do not want to read this article.

Okay, Tango, but what does constitute a worthwhile life? I don't believe, as an atheist, in an afterlife. To me, the only rule for a worthwhile life is -- indeed has to be -- that you went to your grave happy and contented, believing yourself to have lived a worthwhile life. Happiness is worthwhile for its own sake. What is the value of anything else?

Wasn't it Slartibartfast who said "I'd far rather be happy than right any day"?

I respect peoples' right to hold whatever views they hold, be they political, religious, whatever. I may - and frequently disagree with the views - but I respect their right to hold them.

To quote Voltaire - as I so often do on this site - I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it.

Ask yourself a question, Tango sweetie, (bearing in mind that you dismissed ALL christians as creationists, and indicated that they ALL believe ALL of the bible) if you think I was flaming, who started flaming people first?

B

Before I start:
Me had much Therefore, if something me say could be interpreted in two ways, and one of them offends you, me probably meant the other way.
Here we go:

First of all the life of 'Anna' - If one possible life is full of s**t, and is achieving nothing, whereas the other makes the person leading it happy, is not self-destructive, and allows said person to help others, I reckon the second is a better life, even if it's based on a premises I do not believe it. Look at it from another point of view: If 'Anna' was living a life based on one of the Buddist POVs, but was still achieving the same good, would you be so quick to condemn it?

Religion and self esteem: doubious point to my mind. I tend to think of religoin as an easy way out- your actions are carried out for your god, the ultimate responsiblity for the universe lies in your god/ Religion gives you a set of rules to follow, something to fall back on. A cloudier mindset requires you to *think*. As Valentine Michael Smith said "Thou art God" - your actions are *for* yourself, and judged *by* yourself- no higher authority- nothing but a code of behaviour you have worked out for yourself.

For the record, I don't know what I believe in, but I do know there is more to this world than meets the eye. I know that because when I dream I go to places and meet people I have never met. When I was seven or so, sat outside a pub with my father, wasps came and buzzed around da's beer, and he tried to bat them away. Da said "blasted creatures". I said "Grandad hated wasps around his beer, didn't he? 'He always used to say 'damed wasps, trying to drink my beer'". My da's dad died years before I was born. I have seen too many odd things to think that what we can see is all there s- but I still don't believe in a Christian-type omnipotent, omniscient God.

Talking about religions founded for money made me Think scienctologists - a world-wide religoin, started by a bet between two SF writers

When I say atheism, I mean "universal atheism." If I was a Buddhist I would have said "I'm a Buddhist" not I'm an atheist-whatever the dictionary states.

However, to get to the subject religion and self-esteem, I'm not going to say that it is wrong for people to have a strong belief in the supernatural or that it is devestating. It all depends on how religion is affecting a person's self-esteem.

I'm all for the belief that people who are "weak spirited" (and not "spirited" in a religious sense) usually become born again Christians or whatever. I have a very close friend who is part of a church (actually, it's a cult-according to my boyfriend who was in that "church.") My friend has very low self-esteem, really because of her childhood. I'm not quite sure how, because she is quite emotionally reclusive-even to this day and I've known her for almost ten years. However, while she used to depend on men to make her feel worthy of love, she now depends on belonging to a group. She's slowly comming out of that (she's way too independent to stay within a group for long-that may seem like a contradiction to what I wrote earlier but people are complex creatures and hardly any more than her.) Anyhow, she used to stick in "Praise the Lord" between every sentence until I asked her if she was trying to convince herself that she was a true believer. But I wasn't going to try to talk her out of it, especially if it made her feel special or worth something. (And as long as I can keep an open line of communication with her, I'm not worried)

A lot of people become religious zealots because they come from a hard past or are going through very hard times and I'm not going to go to any one I love and say "You're weak and that's why you're religious." Because really, sometimes that's all they have to hold on to until they regain their footing (if ever they do) and I'm not going to be the one trying to make them give it up. People want to feel loved and feel special and they want to have hope. If they can't get the help they need from the people around them, they'll probably go to a supernatural source that understands them and unconditionally supports them. That doesn't make them weak, it just makes them human. Everyone wants to feel good about themselves, and not everyone is "strong" enough to find fulfillment within themselves.

Of course, this is pretty much about people who "find" religion and not those who grew up with it being a centerpiece for their life.

"Ask yourself a question, Tango sweetie, (bearing in mind that you dismissed ALL christians as creationists, and indicated that they ALL believe ALL of the bible) if you think I was flaming, who started flaming people first?"

Before I respond to this, can you explain these statements. ie, can you quote what I said regarding creationists and how I flamed anyone.

I want to understand exactly what you mean before I end up misunderstanding you and offending you.

Tango

Hiya folks,
Just thought i'de make a comment or two,
Something that often perturbs me about religious people (or certainly any that i've met), is their inability to have a proper debate about their beliefs.
You can even see it here in this thread. Almost none of the very good points raised by 'the athiests/agnostics', are addressed by 'the religious'.
Religious folk i've known, ALWAYS seem to counter any difficult issues, such as the lack of evidence for creationist ideas, or some of the other excellent points raised above, with the words- "ah, but god works in mysterious ways" or words to that effect, and then look on smugly, as if by saying this they've won the argument !

I like a good debate as much as the next man, and i will always back down on an issue if someone out-argues me, but i have never actually been able to have a good, interesting, satisfying discussion with someone on religion. All they do, is quote extracts from (in the case of christianity) the bible -a heavily edited book written many years after the events they portray, by a handful of dodgy priests.... or is that a sweeping generalisation.., or they ignore any questions they can't answer, instead of stopping and saying "that's a good point, why do i believe that ?"
If you are going to base your life on a set of ideas, shouldn't you be able to back them up and defend them ?
Now i just know that someone is going to render all of the above redundant, by writing a superb essay on religion, adressing all of the anti-religion points raised here... well if someone would it would be very refreshing.

As i said, i'm not averse to new ideas- i'm a bit of a hypocrit in many ways. i tend to change my views on a subject based on the most up-to-date information, but i don't really see that as a bad thing.

I'm all for folk being happy, it's just that i tend to think happiness should be based on objective reality; i'm happy because... delete as appropriate,
I'm in a happy relationship
I have a good job
I am in good health
I have lots of good friends
I have enough money....and so on.

Just one of the above might be enough for happiness, depends on the person, i suppose.

Mindyou, maybe being part of a tribe/group/ religion, whatever you want to call it, brings happiness, through companionship, and being surrounded by like-minded people. Same as supporting a football team, or joining club of some kind.

Oh well, that was more than a comment or two, sorry! just some random thoughts- hope no offence has been caused.

"I think someone that belives a big old man lives above the sky and made an entire world in 6 days against ALL evidence, should be very careful what ideas he calls stupid."

I think that was what Ben was referring to, Tango. I'm gonna stay out of this dialog that you and Ben've got going, BTW.

As for flaming... a few people are being provocative, so if everyone'd like to tone things down before we all start smouldering?

Metaki

That was exactly the section I was referring to metaki:

"I think someone that belives a big old man lives above the sky and made an entire world in 6 days against ALL evidence, should be very careful what ideas he calls stupid. (I will also point out at this point that the Christian God is clearly a sadist and a meglomaniac. If a person had those qualities they would be hated, so if God does exist he also should be hated, not loved. If you wish to argue with me about this then feel free, debating religion happens to be a favorite pasttime of mine)"

I have already said that I am not a Christian, and I find a lot of Christians extremely irritating. But I respect their right to hold their views and exercise their beliefs.

What I dislike in Tango's behaviour is the underlying disrespect he shows Christians. So I decided to give him a taste of his own medicine. Interestingly enough, he doesn't like being patronised, and he doesn't like being dissed. I have a simple rule of thumb - I don't hand out what I can't take. Tango, it appears, can dish it out, but doesn't like to take it.

B

That was not flaming, it was countering what Uncle Heavy said:

"of course it wasnt invented for money. thats the stupidest idea ever. why did apostles go to their graves after being hunted down by jews AND romans?"

I would like to know what you think shows I can not take what I give. I simply wanted to know exactly what you meant. I would also like to know why I should respect Christians, respect is something that has to be earned, I don't see how blindly believing something that can not be proven should earn anyone respect.

Tango

Tango, this could get unnecessarily personal, and to be honest, I don't like to be the flaming witch of the west. In addition, it would be pointlessly unpleasant for the rest of the people in this thread. I *can* point out to you where I considered you to be flaming, and where I consider you to show signs of not being able to take what you so happily dish out, and if you really want me to, then I suggest that you drop by my U-Page and we have that conversation there.

>I would also like to know why I should respect Christians, respect is something that has to be earned,

This is where we disagree, it seems. I respect people because they are people. I may have a lack of respect for the way in which they behave, but they are still people, regardless of what they believe.

Paradoxically, I respect your right to the opinion that respect has to be earned, even though I disagree with it. Funny old world, innit?

>I don't see how blindly believing something that can not be proven should earn anyone respect.

You have a massive presupposition right there that all Christians believe blindly. Some are full of doubts, some believe selectively, some believe based on evidence, some believe based on logic, some believe cautiously, some believe reluctantly, some believe unhappily.

It is this lumping together of a large number of disparate people, and then abusing them, which is (a)stupid (b)unpleasant and (c) perilously close to flaming.

On the subject of belief based on evidence: it should be noted that there are processes which in Christianity are called 'prayer' which are remarkably effective in bringing about change. In other philosophies some of these processes are called 'meditation' or 'affirmation' or 'visualisation' (depending on exactly which processes they are). These are demonstrably effective, the effectiveness of visualisation can be checked by monitoring physiological changes in the body, for example, and visualisation is a key part in sports psychology. The effectiveness of these techniques, experienced as the power of prayer, is considered by some Christians to be an argument in favour of their theism.

Finally:

I urge you to learn to respect others. You might find your life becomes easier if you do. One of the things in you which reduces my respect for you is your arrogant dismissiveness of the beleifs of others.

Ben
PS - let me state here and now that I am not a Christian.

Thank you for explaining that rationally and fairly. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this matter. I'll see you around.

Tango