h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Where did all the > come from?

Interesting article. On the matter of 'to be', didn't Christopher Plummer quote from Hamlet with these same words? Something like 'taq bah, taq beh' - I'm being vaguely phonetic there... He utters the words just before his Bird of Prey first fires on the Enterprise.

we'll all have to be sad and go watch it again......or are there transcripts on the internet? i'll ask h2g2 in a sec.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/brunel/AddThread?inreplyto=2333415

i asked

F19585?thread=205846

After a quick search, I found:

'It was Star Trek VI that inspired Trek-ophiles to translate Hamlet into Klingon: In one scene, actor Christopher Plummer says, "To be or not to be" in the alien dialect ("taH pagh taHbe' "). Okrand was surprised by how Klingon caught on. "I get letters written in Klingon, and people have performed marriage ceremonies in the language."'

So... the bit about 'to be' isn't correct.

OK "The Apprentice" - "after a quick search" you found something.

Whereas I did the actual *research* for the entry.

You say "the bit about 'to be' isn't correct." What the entry actually SAYS is: "as the original Klingon dictionary points out that the language lacks a verb meaning 'to be'".

Did you CHECK the original Klingon dictionary? Because guess what - I did. And it points out, fairly early on, that the language lacks a verb meaning "to be". I'll be back tomorrow, and I'll tell on which page it says it.

So - the bit about "to be" IS correct.

H.

Oh, and in answer to "where did all the > come from?" - what do think the editing process is for, if not for taking an entry with no mistakes in it and adding some?



H.

So, what does 'taH pagh taHbe' mean then? - if not 'To Be, or Not to Be'?

Please don't get hot under the collar on this - you're not the only Star Trek fan in the h2g2 community. As Plummer said it - and clearly the meaning of the phrase is intended to be 'To Be, or Not to Be' - what does it mean if 'to be' is not an available Klingon grammatical term?

Regarding the '>' comments... the Editors come back to new entries to check on the comments to see if any errors need to be corrected. I was flagging the issue to them. I for one, as a Sub-Editor, do not sit around inserting errors into entries - nor do the Editors. So, my thinking, given the number of '>' appearing is some coding error has crept in.

Now... enjoy your Friday and let off some steam.

The Apprentice

"So, what does 'taH pagh taHbe' mean then? - if not 'To Be, or Not to Be'?"

It does translate as "To be or not to be" - now that the language has been modified. However, that's not the point I was making. The point I was making, and which is absolutely correct, is that the language AS ORIGINALLY CONCEIVED and described in the original dictionary contains no such verb. This fact is supplied for two reasons:

1. it shows how translating Hamlet was not as simple as it might first appear, and in fact required a great deal of work, including some work on the language itself.
2. as a JOKE. It's supposed to be mildly funny. I know for a fact that that phrasing made at least one person smile. Sorry you only saw it as an opportunity to nitpick...

"Please don't get hot under the collar on this - you're not the only Star Trek fan in the h2g2 community."

Duh. Am I the only one who checks their facts before impugning the accuracy of the research of others?

"As Plummer said it - and clearly the meaning of the phrase is intended to be 'To Be, or Not to Be' - what does it mean if 'to be' is not an available Klingon grammatical term?"

See above. It means that now. It didn't then. This is a joke, and one based on verifiable facts. It's not wrong. You said it was wrong. You implied I made a mistake. I didn't.

"I for one, as a Sub-Editor, do not sit around inserting errors into entries - nor do the Editors."

Do please check your facts. I can point you to AT LEAST two distinct conversation threads where I've had to point out that the Editors (NOT the volunteer subs - the paid Editors) have done exactly that to entries I have written in the past. I've got in the habit of watching entries of mine EXTREMELY closely during the editing process because of this. The reason I didn't point these errors out myself before the entry hit the front page was
(a) it's been so long since it was picked
(b) I understood that another subed was being appointed so I was waiting until I found out who that was
(c) I had no idea it was going to hit the front page this weekend when I looked at it yesterday.

I suggested ten months ago that an automatic email to the author a few days before an entry hits the front would stop this sort of thing happening. No luck so far.

H.

does it really matter? its a tv show!

You're having a bad day... right?

I wasn't 'nit-picking'. What's Peer Review about - where similar comments get posted? Just nit-picking? I don't think that's the case...

I wasn't aware the original version of the Klingon Dictionary was freely available or accessible - my fault there. I've only seen the publically published stuff...

So, Plummer words were made up and added to the dictionary afterwards. Fine. I wasn't seeking to undermine you. Just stating things from my point of view. I mean... when they were translating Hamlet into Klingon clearly 'to be or not to be' WAS available. I get the humour that it didn't exist BEFORE. I'm not devoid of a funny bone.

Anyway... the rest of the comments... I'm passing on. Looks like a technical error to me.

"does it really matter? its a tv show!"

I think the point of the article is to show exactly the opposite. Klingon is no longer just part of a TV show/movie franchise - it's become a usable language.

but usable by who? im as much as a trekkie (or 'trekker' whichever point you take) as the next person however i dont go around advertising the fact. in school i didnt dare tell anyone in fear of being beaten up (the joy of living in the north east) if you r going to go around talking klingon outside the walls of safety of a convention then frankly you deserve to be beaten up!

Brackets gone

Thanks Ashley, hope you're feeling better.

"I wasn't aware the original version of the Klingon Dictionary was freely available or accessible - my fault there. I've only seen the publically published stuff..."

I bought my copy in Waterstones, and they were letting the public in that day. And I *thought* the entry was pretty clear that this was a widely available book, but now I look at it, it isn't necessarily that clear .

Google searching on "Klingon Dictionary" brings up several links to where you can buy it online, however. It's quite cheap

Anyway, I'm not having that bad a day... now that the mistakes in the Edited version have been removed.

H.

"but usable by who? im as much as a trekkie (or 'trekker' whichever point you take) as the next person however i dont go around advertising the fact. in school i didnt dare tell anyone in fear of being beaten up (the joy of living in the north east) if you r going to go around talking klingon outside the walls of safety of a convention then frankly you deserve to be beaten up!"

Not everyone who is interested in the Klingon language are trekkies/trekkers/etc, there are people who are linguists who are interested in it on a purely profesional/educational basis, some because it's another language for them to learn, some because it's a language that was "artifically" created, instead of naturally developing within a society.

And I am a fan of Star Trek also, but I am not afraid to say anything about it to someone else. I often find the people I least expect to are also interested in it, and have ended up in some interesting conversations because of it. I don't feel anyone deserves to be beaten up just because of a language they happen to be speaking, and I feel that anyone stupid enough to believe that it is justification to be beaten up should have some sense knocked into 'em, or at least should re-evaluate their brains.

...and people wonder why humanity is so messed up... *Shakes head and walks off*

Right, on the subject of this whole "to be" nonsense...

From "The Klingon Dictionary", by Marc Okrand, ISBN 0-671-74559-X, page 67, Chapter 6 ("Syntax") section 3:

"There is no verb corresponding to English 'to be' in Klingon."

The entry is correct. Case closed.

But...

The interesting thing is, despite the discussion earlier - there is STILL not a verb meaning "to be" in Klingon. So, how does Christopher Plummer say "To be or not to be" in STVI:TUC...?

taH pagh taHbe'...

taH is a verb which can be translated variously as "continue", "go on", "endure", "survive", or for linguistically unknown reasons "be at a negative angle".

pagh means "or" in this context (it's also the word for "zero")

the suffix be' negates the verb to which it is appended.

Therefore the "original" Klingon *literally* translates as:

"To endure, or to not endure?"

or possibly

"To go on, or not to go on?"

Enduring, and specifically enduring *pain*, is a common Klingon concept. See the Klingon proverb:

yIn DayajmeH 'oy' yISIQ

"To understand life, endure pain" (the verb for "endure" in this case being "SIQ" - trust the Klingons to have several different verbs for this concept)

Now, presumably the Terran translators, when they read Wil'yam Shex'pir's original Klingon soliliquy, thought that they could render it a bit more pithily and poetically in English by applying a bit of poetic license and reducing it to "To be, or not to be?". The funny thing being, that by doing so, they remove one of the fundamental meanings of the speech - that at this point, for Hamlet "to be" means more than just "to be" - it means "to endure" - "to go on", and as he indeed says a little later "to suffer the slings and arrows" etc. But hey, they were translating a complex play from an alien language. They're allowed a few screw ups, no?



H.

i apologise profusly for destroying your faith in humanity maybe those beatings did do something to my brain. oh how wonderful it would be if the whole world could just accept each other and live in peace and harmony. or at least not put up a fight when the ants take over the world, maybe they'll be better at it than us

I thought the mice already were in charge... or are the ants gonna overthrow them?

...well, you were not the one who destroyed my faith... oh, that's long gone, never to be found again like luggage lost to the airlines... but your comment simpley was the grain of sand that rebroke the camel's back that had been broken so many times before it rivals the number of stars in the sky. I pessimistic about the human race, and have a loud mouth. Great for making people like you have guilt trips (okay, I'm kidding about that last part... maybe...)