h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I'm not sure why I'm so sure, Clare, but over time you get to know how people write and communicate; you recognise their styles and mannerisms. Esplen isn't/wasn't Hoo.

Noggin

Um, just had a nonrelated random thought that I would like challenged - it cropped up in my mind that we can never prove or have either determinism or free will because it hasn't happened yet.
I don't think it was Hoo, there's no need for him to assume an identity, is there? Bear in mind that many people here have very long posts. It might've been he who must not be named, but he wouldn't care about identity.

Very good, Fnord. Random unrelated thought doesn't need challenging - merely sharpening up a bit. Neither determinism or free will can actually be observed; they're human explanatory concepts.

The only possible test for determinism would be perfect predictability - but there are a number of logical proofs that even in an Absolutely Deterministic Universe perfect predictability would be impossible (Special relativity, the three body problem, the uncertainty principle, Hademard's proof, the Halting Problem, and Godel's Incompleteness theorem). Therefore, when predictions fail we can never be sure whether this is because of some indeterminacy or because of ignorance.

Noggin

Determinism isn't necessarily linked to predictability, Noggin. I've always tried to avoid these topics, since I know, in a sort of topical-Agnostic way, that there's no possible way of proving either, that they are the ultimate unknowable question, unless you mean Determinism in the Descates context, ie there's a superior being who has planned all our movements somewhere above us, in which case the determinism could be proved but not disproved. The flaw in that is, of course, that the Demon/God, must automatically be included in their own plans, ad infinitum.
Also, that thought was just one example of the random revelations people have, you know, often in dreamlike state, which makes perfect sense at the time but is now rendered obsolete. I'll try and remember what I meant and why it was rational.

I was talking about determinism in the scientific sense, rather than as fate. The demon/god being included in his own plans is an example of the Halting Problem, and is also applicable to any form of free will.

Not sure how the determinism of a superior being could be proved but not disproved.

Noggin

Well, if we found the being, and saw that what they decided had an actual affect on things, and saw the plan, and it in motion correllating, that would at least be partial evidence, and more than slightly undebatable.
The Halting Problem?

Google it, Fnord.

In it's most general form - "A predicting machine may not predict it's own future internal states, because in order to do so it would have to contain as PART of itself a COMPLETE model of itself."

Noggin

Must leave for mein bett now, but, what a seemingly unrelated name for such a well known and universal process. However, it wouldn't apply to God, surely, since He's Omni-omni, and is above things like logic.

Feliz Birthday, Fnord,




muchos kissitos,
az

Yeah, happy birthday!

I missed the hootoo meet as well, but only cos I was in Wales. Measuring seaweed.

as you do . . .

Ecology for Biology A2.

hi Roadkill,

Well, that's what I said - as you do . . .

if you are doing ecology for biology A2

sounds quite interesting actually, except for possible midges and mosquitos!

az

Well, there was less of that, and more of the measuring seaweed. Some of it got to over 60cm.

Okay, I'll go for it - WHY were you measuring seaweed ?

az

And why do you have to come to Wales to do it? Don't you have any seaweed of your own?

Noggin

I live in Cambridge. Not much seaweed around. Why we had to go to Wales, I don't know. One of the biology staff is Welsh, that might be it.

Anyway I have coursework. I was measuring seaweed because my hypothesis was that it would get longer as you go down the beach. The way you measure how far you are up the beach is confusing. I will explain if asked, but it's really not that interesting.

You go right ahead and explain it, Roadkill. Was just going to bed anyhow.

buenas noches,
azaharita chiquitita

Right, well, there's no point using a horizontal scale, because beaches differ. After all, if you say "bladderwrack is mainly found at 6 metres away from the low tide mark", that means completely different things when you have a fairly flat beach and a sheer cliff face. So instead you use a vertical measure. There's this measure called "Chart Datum"- CD for short.

When it's at low tide- for the sake of argument, 1.4m above CD, you stick a metre ruler in the sand. Get an optical level (a chock of wood with a free swinging pointy weight) or a spirit level. Look along the level, and you're 2.4 metres above CD. You can tell what height organsims like, and what percentage of the time they are likely to be covered by water. And it makes sense on all beaches, too.

Yay! I'm back!