h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Isn't part of the difference between the toilet unicorn and God that one matters and the other doesn't? That it doesn't make a bit of difference to how I love my life whether I believe in the toilwt unicorn or not, because it can't do anything to me. I don't think this affects their credibility, but it *is* a difference.

Huh?
Too true the toilet unicorn can't affect you.
J

hi Clare and Jem,

Actually, the toilet unicorn could and would affect you if you chose to believe in it - just like with God.

az

If we chose to believe in it, and chose tp believe other stuff about it, yes; just by itself I don't see how. Is it the same with God, can you believe in God but not in his(/her) omnipotence, omniscience, trandscendence and absolute benevolence. AGod who exists but doesn't do anything else, would that affect you?

"Isn't part of the difference between the toilet unicorn and God that one matters and the other doesn't?"

Hmm. Now I have to guess which one you think matters...

"That it doesn't make a bit of difference to how I love my life"

Nice pun! (or nice typo, depending...)

"whether I believe in the toilwt unicorn or not, because it can't do anything to me."

Clare, substitute the word "God" for "the toilwt unicorn" in that sentence, and see if it still makes sense. Let's see, shall we:

<>

I ask again - what's the difference?

The only difference I can see - and the only reason that you could POSSIBLY claim that God "matters" - is that some loony isn't going to strap explosives to himself and get on a bus and kill you because he thinks the unicorn is blue, not pink. Some hectoring moron in a bowler hat isn't going to come marching down your street once a year banging a bass drum and singing songs about slaughtering you because he believes the horn twists clockwise and you think it's anticlockwise.

And that difference is a difference in PEOPLE and their unpleasant behaviour - it says nothing at all about the existence or otherwise of the unicorn, or God.

I'm still curious to see what the "support and evidence" is that Jem mentioned in post 38...

H.

hi again,

Well, I'd have to say that your notions of your God's omnipotence, omniscience, transcendence and absolulte benevolance are all in your heads. And no, I'm not making fun at all. Just wondering - WHY do you believe all these things about your God?

I would also say that all those things you mentioned about your God exist within yourselves. That you *are* god. And god is you. But living in our temporal bodies keeps us separate from becoming god completely while we still inhabit them.

I don't actually have a proper name for my personal god. So these days I just call it Fred. I suppose I could also call it toilet unicorn if I liked, wouldn't make any difference. And as I've said before, mine isn't a belief, per se, rather just a very incomplete knowledge gleaned from moments when I *have* felt totally connected to this mystery of life source. I think that having these little inklings of Fred are about as close as we ever get. And I'm quite content with that. So I don't need to build up a whole belief system surrounding Fred. I just know it's there - how can it not be if I exist?

az

Fred?!
Az, I don't even know what omnipotence, omniscience, trandscendence and absolute benevolence are, let alone why I believe God has them! Clare will know (Mavis)! I believe God is good because it's in the Bible, and all right I give in Hoo, I was taught it. But that doesn't mean I believe in it. I was vaguely taught the Big Bang at school but I don't believe in that.
I've finally read those Bible quotes Hoo gave me, here are the thoughts I wrote down:
Duet 13:6 - not sure whether it says there are other gods or not, or they are just what people imagine or make up. Ditto Ex 20:3, Ex 23:13, Ex 23:24 and Jeremiah 16:11.
Ex 22:20 - sounds brutal but necessary.
Ex 34:14 - maybe he's a jealous God because people pay more attention to other imaginary gods than to him. Ditto Duet 5.4
Josh 24: 19-20 - lovely, but on same theme
Jud 2:12 - I agree it sounds like there are other gods there
Jeremiah 13:10 - fair enough

Hoo, I can see what you are getting at, but I'm not sure there is really enough proof in the Bible to back up your theory. I hope those notes are understandable. They don't mean anything to me without a Bible in front of me. And yes, you're right, I haven't read the whole of the Old Testament, but I have read the New Testament barring Hebrews.
J

hi Jem

Do you realize you've put Fred's name, and toilet unicorn AHEAD of God's. Better change that or He'll get p**sed off

Don't you find it odd that your God has all these very *human* characteristics and moods? (and some rather nasty ones too). Hmmmm. Perhaps He was created in man's image (by men) and not the other way around?

Omnipotent - having very great or unlimited power

Omniscient - having infinite knowledge or understanding

Transcendent - having continuous existence outside the created world.

Benevolent - intending or showing goodwill; kindly; friendly


az

"I don't even know what omnipotence, omniscience, trandscendence and absolute benevolence are, let alone why I believe God has them!"

Omnipotence: being all powerful - capable of doing literally anything.
Omniscience: being all knowing - literally knowing everything there is to know about everything ever (tricky one for the free will that one - does God know what you're going to do tomorrow? If so, can you be truly said to have free will, if what you're going to do is known to God and therefore predetermined?)
Transcendence: existing outside the universe of space and time (I think...)
Absolute benevolence: being incapable of evil and existing in perfect good. A tricky one in the light of many of Gods own pronouncements in his inerrant divinely inspired own words, the Bible...

"I believe God is good because it's in the Bible, and all right I give in Hoo, I was taught it."

You believe God is good because it's in the Bible?

A bunch of kids made fun of Elisha for being bald. He, like some telltale child, complained to God. God's response was to send two bears which disemboweled forty two of the children. 2 Kings, 2:23-25.

You believe God is good because it's in the Bible?

God drowned every living thing on the planet because he was angry. Everything except one family and two (or is it seven?) of each animal. What had these living things done to deserve this?

You believe God is good because it's in the Bible?

Numbers 15:32-36 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

And you believe that God is good, because it's in the Bible?

"But that doesn't mean I believe in it."

Well, do you, or don't you?

"I was vaguely taught the Big Bang at school but I don't believe in that."

And can you tell me why not? What thought have you given it which leads you to this conclusion? I'm honestly interested.

I mean, I can, to an extent, understand why you would reject the Bible without much thought (although it seems you haven't) because it's very very obviously a fairy story. I'm less clear why you say you don't believe one of the most widely accepted theories of science. What do you believe instead, and on what basis? Or do you just not think about it at all?

"I've finally read those Bible quotes Hoo gave me, here are the thoughts I wrote down:"

Ooh, goodie!

Duet 13:6 - not sure whether it says there are other gods or not, or they are just what people imagine or make up. Ditto Ex 20:3, Ex 23:13, Ex 23:24 and Jeremiah 16:11.

You need to put the Bible in the context in which is was written. The world then was not the largely monotheistic place it is today. It was full of other gods - too many to list.

Make no mistake, the god of the Bible was one among many, and there is NO suggestion, none at all, that the people who wrote the Bible believed their god was the only one who existed. They simply believed that he was the only one worth worshipping - the most powerful, the most vengeful, whatever. Denying the very EXISTENCE of other gods would have been a dangerous move, because if you deny the existence of other gods, then you may be reasonably asked what better evidence there is for the existence of YOUR God.

In fact - I'll put that to you right now.

Do you believe in the following gods: Zeus, Apollo, Mulungu, Nzambi, Anubis, Osiris, Cernunnos, Loki, Odin, Thor, Anat, Baal, Inanna, Chang Huang, Fu Shen, Rama, Ganesha, Quetzalcoatl, Kitshi Manitou, Mithras?

If you can tell me why you don't believe in *those* gods, you may be close to understanding why I don't believe in yours...

"Ex 22:20 - sounds brutal but necessary."

WHAT?!?!?!?!

"He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."

This basically calls for the execution of anyone worshipping a different god - or, put another, about four BILLION people in today's world.

Brutal, certainly. How do you defend this kind of murderous religious intolerance as "necessary"? I'm honestly fascinated to hear your answer to that one in particular.

"Ex 34:14 - maybe he's a jealous God because people pay more attention to other imaginary gods than to him. Ditto Duet 5.4"

See above about the whole omnipotent thing - if he's a GOD, and if he's the only one, how can he be jealous of something which you say doesn't exist?

"Josh 24: 19-20 - lovely, but on same theme"

"And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins."

This *specifically* says that God will not forgive sins. As you say - lovely.

"Hoo, I can see what you are getting at, but I'm not sure there is really enough proof in the Bible to back up your theory."

Then you need to read it again, and perhaps learn some of the background to it also - the history of the time, to put it into some sort of context. The concept that the god of the Bible is one among many is not a theory of mine - it's an everyday fact acknowledged in many verses by the people who wrote it. The whole point of exhortations not to worship other gods makes it clear.

Note that it does not, at any point, say that these other gods do not exist. It only ever warns you not to worship them, or sacrifice to them, for fear of terrible retribution.

Doesn't that fact tell you anything?

"I hope those notes are understandable."

Well, I understand *what* you've said. See above for some serious bafflement about *why*, and some honest amazement that you apparently think it's "necessary" to kill everyone who doesn't worship the right god...

"And yes, you're right, I haven't read the whole of the Old Testament, but I have read the New Testament barring Hebrews."

Ooh, shame, you've missed some crackers in there.

10:31 - "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." I'll bet it is...

11:13 - "These [Abraham and his descendants] all died in faith, not having received the promises," WOW! God didn't keep his promises to the founder of the religion that worships him? How ungrateful is that?

12:6 - "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth." You know that phrase 'you hurt the one you love' - well if god loves you, he's going to hurt you. And he's GOD, so best watch out, eh?

Note I've reorded the above. Not that I think He would care.
By the way, what did I say in Issue 38?
"Do you believe in the following gods: Zeus, Apollo, Mulungu, Nzambi, Anubis, Osiris, Cernunnos, Loki, Odin, Thor, Anat, Baal, Inanna, Chang Huang, Fu Shen, Rama, Ganesha, Quetzalcoatl, Kitshi Manitou, Mithras?"
No, but probably because I know very little about them.

"I was vaguely taught the Big Bang at school but I don't believe in that." Hoo - "And can you tell me why not? What thought have you given it which leads you to this conclusion? I'm honestly interested."
Because it sounds too improbable to be true. Ok so the Christian creation story sounds improbable as well, but I prefer to believe in that than the Big Bang. Why? dunno.
What has some crackers? The OT or Hebrews?
I'm glad you understood my notes. Shame you don't agree, not that I really expected you to.
J

Jem:

Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

Since you can't remember, and can't be bothered to look back, at what YOU said in post 38 of this thread, let me spoonfeed it back to you.

"I'd say there was probably more support and evidence for God than there is for the toilet unicorn!"

I'll ask again - WHAT evidence?

And I'll ask this again too: "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."

This basically calls for the execution of anyone worshipping a different god - or, put another, about four BILLION people in today's world.

You described that as "Brutal, maybe, but necessary."

Brutal, certainly. How do you defend this kind of murderous religious intolerance as "necessary"? I'm honestly fascinated to hear your answer to that one in particular. How many people who worship a different God to you have you personally killed? And if the answer is "none", why do you consider it "necessary", and who do you think should be doing it if not you?

I asked "Do you believe in the following gods: [list of Greek, Roman, African, Egyptian, Celtic, Norse, Sumerian, Chinese, Hindu, Inca, Native American and Middle Eastern gods]"
No, but probably because I know very little about them.

Your criteria for whether you believe in something is whether you know anything about them???

Alright, since you seem to have so spectacularly missed the point with that example:

Do you believe in Santa Claus? Or the tooth fairy?

IF you don't (and on the evidence so far of how thoughtful and intelligent you are, I'm assuming NOTHING) and IF you can tell me WHY you don't, you may be closer to understanding why I don't believe in your God.

Quick question - are you thinking at all about what I'm writing here, or are you just reading it and answering with the first thing that comes into your head? I'm honestly interested.

"I was vaguely taught the Big Bang at school but I don't believe in that." ... Because it sounds too improbable to be true."

OK - then another question. What do you know about probability? Do you consider yourself well enough qualified in physics to accurately judge how probable the Big Bang theory is? Can you even describe in more than the most cursory detail what the theory even is? And if you can't, what on earth gives you the idea that you are in a position to judge whether it's true or not?

An important point here - your "intuition" as to whether it's true is USELESS. You must go to the evidence. Since you used the word "vague" to describe your education, I can safely assume you do not have the evidence to hand.

"Ok so the Christian creation story sounds improbable as well"

No, it doesn't. It sounds IMPOSSIBLE. The two are quite, quite different.

Also - WHICH Christian Creation story? Read your Bible, Jem - there are TWO Creation myths, and they contradict each other.

Read Genesis, Chapters 1 and 2, then answer me these questions:

1. Was man created first, then woman, or were they created together?
2. Was man created before or after the animals?

Simple questions. YOU choose to prefer Creationism - you can perhaps, therefore, think about it a little and tell me WHICH of the two contradictory fairy stories you believe is the truth.

"but I prefer to believe in that than the Big Bang. Why? dunno."

The depth of your thought awes me. It's a central question of existence, and you can't be bothered to think about it.

"What has some crackers? The OT or Hebrews?"

Hebrews. That was where the quotes I supplied you came from. That was why I gave the chapter and verse, but didn't give the book. I assumed that it was obvious that since I didn't give a book, I meant the book you'd mentioned.

I apologise for crediting you with the wit to understand that. I'll be careful to think for you and spoonfeed you more carefully in future, since you don't seem to enjoy thinking for yourself much.

"I'm glad you understood my notes. Shame you don't agree, not that I really expected you to."

I'm sorry you didn't understand my notes. Shame you don't think, and I apologise for expecting you to.

H.

Who are Huey Dewey and Louie?
Hello Hoo
I wish you'd stop picking apart my arguments. It makes me very unhappy. I printed off your last argument, and showed it to my friend, who although atheist, could think of some good replies.
To santa claus and the tooth fairy she said, 'How do you know there isn't a santa claus or a tooth fairy? just cause you havent seen them it doesn't mean that they don't exist. Have you ever seen a billion pounds in cash?'
THere is not really any evidence for a god, but then there isn't any evidence for there not being a god. We don't have any witnesses for the creation or the big bang, so we can only assume and believe what we feel is more likely.
Thank you for telling me that I am obviously too stupid to understand, and I don't think about things enough. I assure you I do. I'm just not very good at putting those thoughts into words (as my friends will happily inform you!). No-one has really questioned my beliefs before, so this is a first go. I must admit I thought Clare might back me up, but she hasn't really, cause she's not sure what she believes.
A word of advice. How about trying to get your opinion across, instead of just trying to destroy my arguments all the time.
J

Hi Jem,

Huey, Dewey & Louie are Donald Duck's three nephews. (you do know who Donald Duck is?) I was just being silly, since to me it doesn't really matter what we call Fred.

btw, don't let Hoo wind you up too much. I think he just wants to challenge you to dig a little deeper. And so it's good that you copied out your last exchange and showed it to a friend for further discussion, which you might not have done if Hoo hadn't upset you. But don't take it personally. If he calls you stupid or makes claims that you don't bother to think (really, shame on you Hoo, you know you didn't mean that!) then respond by proving him wrong. If you dare!

az

"Who are Huey Dewey and Louie?"

Donald Duck's nephews. A move on from "Fred/toilet unicorn/God", and at the same time a pun on your nickname. az!

"I wish you'd stop picking apart my arguments. It makes me very unhappy."

I don't want to make you unhappy.

I do want to make you think a bit about what you believe.

Picking apart your arguments and showing you why they're silly is my way of doing that, or trying to. But it'll only work if you WANT to think. Do you?

"I printed off your last argument, and showed it to my friend, who although atheist, could think of some good replies."

Couldn't you think of any for yourself? That's what I'm getting at here - DON'T take my word for things, DON'T take your priest's word for things, think for yourself.

"To santa claus and the tooth fairy she said, 'How do you know there isn't a santa claus or a tooth fairy? just cause you havent seen them it doesn't mean that they don't exist. Have you ever seen a billion pounds in cash?'"

Correct - just because I haven't seen something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But just because I can IMAGINE it, doesn't mean it DOES. You have to apply critical thinking.

What is the evidence for the existence of Mount Everest? I've never seen that, but it is reasonable to suppose it exists, because I've seen photographs, televisions pictures, and spoken to people who've seen it and climbed it.

What is the evidence for the existence of Santa Claus? ...
Or the tooth fairy?...
Or God? ...

"THere is not really any evidence for a god"

Then why did you say there was?

"but then there isn't any evidence for there not being a god."

That's because you can't HAVE "evidence for there not being" anything. You cannot prove a negative. That's just not how proof, how *evidence* works. Do you understand this point?

"We don't have any witnesses for the creation or the big bang, so we can only assume and believe what we feel is more likely."

No... we can look at the evidence and test its reasonableness in the light of experience. And by that test - the big bang passes, and creation fails.

"Thank you for telling me that I am obviously too stupid to understand"

I can only go on what you say here, remember.

"I'm just not very good at putting those thoughts into words (as my friends will happily inform you!)."

Then this is good practice, perhaps...

"No-one has really questioned my beliefs before, so this is a first go."

Well, someone's questioning them now. Remember, I'm not trying to get you the *change* them - just think about them and not take them for granted. If you do that, you may just end up believing exactly what you believe now, with the additional benefit of knowing exactly WHY. Wouldn't that be good?

"I must admit I thought Clare might back me up, but she hasn't really, cause she's not sure what she believes."

Don't look to others - I'm asking you to think for yourself. Clare backing you up doesn't help you understand what YOU believe, it only tells you what SHE believes - and that's not what we're talking about.

"A word of advice. How about trying to get your opinion across, instead of just trying to destroy my arguments all the time."

But my opinion is centred on the invalidity of your arguments. You *know* what my opinion is - explaining *why* it is what it is must necessarily involve disagreement with you. I don't want to insult or upset you, but I do want to you think about and answer the things I've asked you.

There are no *wrong* answers - this isn't an exam. Think about what you believe, why you believe it, whether it makes sense... and tell me. If you like.

H.

hola Hoo

A pun on *whose* nickname? I made a pun?

I actually think it's good that Jem is talking to others too. Well, as long as she isn't only looking for others to agree with her. It's always good to get more perspectives on a topic, don't you agree?

Perhaps she wasn't 'thinking' too hard about certain things, but it's a bit unfair to then tell her she doesn't know how to think at all. I mean, I know that you mean well and that you would never say anything intentionally to hurt her, but, you know . . .

Anyhow, you obviously have the advantage in that you have your opinions all sorted out. And I can see that what you are ultimately trying to do is help Jem to think for herself, which is a good thing. I don't think she is doing too badly so far. And once she realizes you are only challenging her, not trying to make her feel stupid, she might enjoy the sport a bit more and be able to think more clearly.

kissitos,
az

Thanks. I feel better now. I'm just pretty stressed out at the moment because we have exams next week and I haven't done nearly enough revision. so I'm not really a happy bunny at the moment. I can see what you lot are getting at, but as you say, i need to think it out some more. I agree that I should think for myself about what I believe, but I wasn't getting anywhere so I showed it to my friends who showed an interest.
sorry I haven't really said what I mean, but I'm not very happy at the moment, I keep crying, and my head of year keeps talking to me (not normal practice at my school).
Adios amigos
Jemima
xxxx

hi Jem

Oh, I'm sorry to hear you're going through a hard time, crying and stuff. I do hope you weren't saying 'adios' forever. Really, you should think of this conversation as an interesting way of thinking a bit more about stuff. As Hoo said - it's not an exam. It's actually meant to be a bit of fun as well.

You might even find it helps you in general - all this thinking for yourself stuff. And this is a good forum for you to express new thoughts and ideas with other people responding to you. And don't mind Hoo. He's quite hard and crunchy on the outside, but really very soft and sweet on the inside.

Anyhow, Jem, you are with friends here, so don't give us up. Maybe you'd like to share some of the stuff you are going through. And I totally disagree that you 'weren't getting anywhere' with defending your religious beliefs. Heck, almost nobody agrees on religion, which is why the world is in the sad state it is.

I've never been to university, but Hoo has, so perhaps he could give you some good advice about coping with whatever is making you cry right now. Oh, okay, you're not yet in university, but it's the same. I never had exam stress in highschool either. Went to an alternative highschool that (very wisely I think) graded you on year-long achievement, as you went. So if you did well during the year you were exempt from final exams. I've never personally seen the point of having to cram an entire year's worth of (often quite useless) information into one's head in order to pass a final exam. What does that prove? That you have a good memory? Big deal.

Anyhow, hope you won't leave. Have been quite enjoying talking with you.

kissitos,
az

Good grief!

"I'm just pretty stressed out at the moment because we have exams next week and I haven't done nearly enough revision. so I'm not really a happy bunny at the moment."

Then cease taking any notice of me at all at once!

Seriously, if you've got revision to do, go do it, don't waste your time thinking about this nonsense. We'll all still be here after your exams, and won't be in the least offended if there's sudden two day, two week or two months gap in the conversation. That's how things work here - people do have lives!

If you're revising anything you think I can help you with (how likely is that?) then let me know - a fresh perspective can often help make something stick in your mind. Otherwise - good luck, and work hard.

H.

Jem,

See? Told ya! He is truly very soft and sweet on the inside.

much love and good luck - and don't forget we are here. We won't forget you.

az