h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

clare,

Sorry, I meant royal families in general, not just yours. In fact, Prince Felipe here has no chin at all and only one eyebrow.


Have any of you read Life of Pi by Yann Martell? Won the Booker prize last year. It's a totally lovely and challenging and intelligent religious/non-religious/philosophical/psychological read. Will quote a bit of the blurb from the back of the book:

'The stage is set for one of the most extraordinary pieces of literary fiction in recent years, a novel of such rare and wonderous storytelling that it may, as one character claims, make you believe in God. Can a reader reasonably ask for more?'

Can't say the book made me believe in a specific 'God' but I ended up totally believing in Richard Parker.

az

Royal families aren't just interbred within the race - they're all members of the same family. Human beings as a species have been evolving for such a short time that there are no real differences between races. In comparison with a typical troop of chimps the entire human race is a pure bred race.To believe otherwise the first thing you need is a profound ignorance of the facts.

So mum's a philosopher, Clare? The queen of sciences
Who's her favourite?

Noggin

hi Noggin,

Was actually going to question the use of the term 'race' between different humans from different places. Surely it's the human race? All of us.

Also, most royal families have done well to let a few 'commoners' in - Grace Kelly, Diana, etc. At least it lowers the 'ugly factor'


az

Fair point Az, but there's no real alternative word is there?

But the point about all humans being so genetically similar that they really do constitute one race was the one I was trying to make.

Murray and Herrnstein?

Az,
I've just started the Life of Pi (1/2 price in some bookshop or other), and I'm hooked . It's fascinating, and it's only because my dad has stolen it for a while that I'm deigning to come on here and post .

Noggin,
My mum says she can relate to Hume best, but she likes Sartre too. I'm not sure about Sartre, he's pretty depressing .
I haven't read The Bell Curve, but it's mentioned a lot in The Mismeasure of Man, which is basically in reply to Murray and Herrnstein.

Az, if you were apologising for slandering the royal family, please feel free to say whatever you like about them to me (as long as it's derogatory ). I am a republican (in the English sense of the word), and, while I have no personal axe to grind with the queen (although she wouldn't come to my 4th birtday party when I invited her), but I do think a Royal family is such a waste or money, and also hypocritical, if we claim really to strive for democracy.

As an occasional anti-monarchist (albeit one who got angry when he saw his brother, an anarchist, putting up "The Queen Mum - GOOD RIDDANCE" stickers up) I must agree, except to add the fact that you may have missed - I hate the royal family, true, but only in their potence as a symbol - Prince Charles in particular being the funniest royal ever (I wonder if his stupid aristo swine front really is a front? If so, he's a comic genius).
-m3

Fnord,
Yes, I think your brother's stickers do sound a bit tasteless. Much better to attack the Royals at a time when they are strong, so you would be the minority and have support. It's not our particluar royal family I mind,as they don't have any real power themselves (though I do think the concept of inherited title is wrong), but more the fact that, with the Royal family you get the royal prerogative, which means that the Prime Minister, acting 'through' the queen, can make all sorts of decisions about the country (like going to war)without our getting a say.

All I wished for was that the Prime Minister had pushed just one more controversial issue - eg the new EU legislation, at the same time. Speaking, of course, as an *occasional* anarchist, I must say my heart leapt with joy when I saw the people (for a cynical want of a better word) find its voice and take to the streets, and it is the closest I've ever felt to there being the possibility of an actual Revolution, in the anarcho-communist sense, where the people rise up from their sleep and throw off the chains of office, and Blaire doing just one more thing would, I am convinced, have immanentized that eschaton.
Unfortunately, people like my brother are needed to combat people like C-18, and it is a sad necessity that they sully the name of the left wing so.

Clare, Fnord,

What I can't understand is why Canada - long since a part of the British colonies - *still* has the Queen's head on the front of their coins and even still has the Governor General - the Queen's representative - as a very important government personage. That is just weird.

Poor old Canada, always has had an international identity crisis.

az

I know exactly what you mean about the 'voice of the people' etc. I went to the rally in Hyde Park and it was so exciting, and all the different socialist parties handing out brochures, I wanted to join them all!
I think one of the problems the left finds itself in (besides Stalin and the fact that Communism has already been tried and didn't work) is the way they split all the time and hate each other almost as much as they hate the capitalists. The joke 'How many members of a communist party does it take to have an ideological split in the party?' (answer: 2) would not be funny if it wasn't nearly true. It's such a shame because none of the little parties alone can really achieve anything; if they joined I reckon they'd get at least as many votes as the BNP.

I wouldn't give up hope of a revolution; if Blair and Bush carry on they way they have been, people will reach the point where they can't stand it any longer. I doubt there'd be a 'proper' proletariat revolution, but I think we could change some things of we tried.

"From science lessons to Republican revolution: a Study in Topic Drift."

'twould make a fine guide entry if anyone's up for it.

Hume and Sartre, eh? Strange bedfellows. Kant and Wittgenstein for me.

The Royal Prerogative is to democracy what.. oh cobblers, I can't think of a repeatable example, but you get my drift I'm sure.

Noggin

Az,
That is peculiar, about the Queen on Canadian coins.
In the Independant today there was a table of how different countries treat Refugees, and Canada definately came out on top, giving them healthcare, education, housing, legal aid etc etc. Britain's policy was embarassing, basically, let in as few as we can get away with and make life so unpleasant for them when they get here that no more will want to come. This is not a mature attitude and I am not proud of our Government

Emmanuel Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable...
and Wittgenstein was a beery swine who was just as sloshed as Schlegel

You can't mention the fact that Communism didn't work as a downside of the Left - it was an experiment that barely counted, since how was any political system supposed to work in a country in the state that Russia was in at the beginning of this century? Plus, you might as well say that the right's in difficulties since Fascism failed.
That is the legacy inherent in the Left - individualism. However, since it *is* the Left, it is also it's strength. God knows if I was in charge of the Left I'd quickly point out to them all that gathering in slightly bigger groups gets you closer to your dreams quicker than alone, and then they can work from there alone... we'd see some sparks.

Clare,

Sadly, I think most people have become far too fond of their creature comforts to ever start up any sort of revolution. Not that I think a revolution would help much - the big money machinery is quite enormous now. But at least people *wanting* some sort of change would be nice to see. Now I see 15-20 year olds only concerned about getting a good safe job in the future so they can buy themselves more and more stuff. Don't get me wrong, I'm not being cynical (because I am not cynical) but it's just a pattern I've been noticing the past twenty years or so. Teenagers are becoming even more conservative than their parents. They want the comfy job, the nice house, the STUFF. Okay, I know you feel differently, but I am talking about the 'trend' these days. Before teenagers used to be totally rebellious. Now they just want to be able to buy designer trainers and look cool. (blatant generalization? or not?)

az

Actually, I don't view it as conservatism, but it is a blending of right and left wing. It's merely a reflection of the Revolution of Rising Expectations - after the Sixties, when everyone was convinced that we'd be immortal tomorrow and have AI the day after that, the parents of the current generation have passed it on.
See, since the Industrial Revolution, things have looked up and up, and the products and economy reflect this. People were feeling better and looking more at society's products and not at the problems in it. Then the war came. Now realism was included among the happiness. Then the Sixties. Technology and fashion became included. So ever since the beginning of the century expectations have risen, and demands for comfort to fill that expectation of Utopia have risen too, and so commercialism devoloped. Combine that with the massive advances made in casual, basic psychology recently, and you have the burst in PR and ad's - the companies had their expectations of how good psychology was to use in the sixties, too.

Fnord,
I agree with you about Russia not counting. Entirely. But other people don't see it like that, they think 'Oh Communsism is a faliure, back to Capitalism, we'll be much better off then anyway.' I also think it is ironic that the Left, who want to represent the *people* won't work together any more.

Az,
The trouble with being a teenager and needing to rebel is : IT"S ALL BEEN DONE BEFORE!!. Hippies - done. Punks - done. Rock - done, Even yuppies - done (and thank God we don't live in the 80s and have to do them!). But that leaves us with nothing easy, no simple, meaningful rebellion into whihc we can channel our rampant hormones.
There are three answers to this. The first (and most common) is the meaningless rebellion: So what if we don't have anything to rebel against? We'll rebel anyway, you can't stop us. This is destructive and confused. Read the lyrics of any modern 'bad band', and they don't even make grammatical sense. This answer is not for me.
The second, and also second most common, is the tendency you commented on, of teenagers becoming more conservative than their parents. I think this is partly because they don't want to join the mindless rebellion group, and also because they have been so thoroughly brainwashed by their success-addict parents into thinking that money and personal security are more important than worldwide safety and prosperity. This group is prim and annoying and not for me.
The third way is not really any sort of answer at the moment, just the vague feeling that a) there is no simple answer and b) it is up to us to create the answer (simple or otherwise). It is an unrewarding group to belong to, it's members are insecure, angry, unhappy, confused, disillusioned and all that sort of thing. The one thing they are not is stupid. There is no consensus of beliefs, but just a vague feeling that things could be better and we should be doing something about it, but they are also wary of charismatic leaders with simple answers. For this faction to succeed at anything (beyond making wity and thought-provoking protest banners ) they need to combine the 'teenage' anger and impatience with maturity, pragmatism and tact. Whether there is a chance that this group can achieve anything is doubtful, but we have something that the other groups, by definition, do not : the ability to live in uncertainty and hope for a beter future.

phew! rant over. you can come out from under the table now

People need to understand that Communism isn't the left wing, just as capitalism isn't middle wing (actually it's a lot right of center, but it depends which country you're in) and Fascism isn't right wing. I agree with right wingers on some things - I like to think of the good parts of right wing as the embodiment of people preferring classical music to death metal, or vote to have a statue intalled instead of a billboard.
Precisely, Clare. There's nothing to rebel against anymore, so we have to put our expectations (and our parent's expectations) into SOMETHING.

Clare,

Perhaps there is a fourth option - which is to not be a part of any group and try to live an independent life as close to your own personal beliefs as you can.

Since your beliefs sound very caring and thoughtful and intelligent, I don't see how just living your life wouldn't have an effect on those around you. Okay, small-time ripple effect maybe. But I kinda think that is the way things are going now. As you say, all the 'big movements' have been done (though not sure if I totally agree with you on that one). But if that is truly how you feel, then what better way to give something back to the world than being yourself? Because you WILL have an effect. And just imagine a million 'Clares' out there also trying to do something similar. And a million Duckies and Fnords and the rest of you.

I hope I live long enough to see what you guys end up doing.

az