A Conversation for Elizabeth Bathory - the Blood Countess
dieblutegraf Started conversation May 2, 2007
I read on Dennis Bathory's site that there is an actual handwritten diary that her ladyship wrote. According to him, few scholars familiar with archaic Hungarian have seen and been able to translate...is there anyone else who has read/know about this?
Also, I was wondering is her portrait has ever been found?
TerrenceMr Posted Feb 4, 2008
The Wikipedia english version article shows a portrait of her.
The Denis Bathory site is a fiction site by an artist. My guess is he is using E. Bathory to make himself famous and he has NO interest in any actual facts.
From what I can find out in Hungarian history books it is not at all clear that she actually ever did anything other than be on the loosing side of a conflict between the highest level aristocrats and the Habsburgs who always were well known political manipulators.
Guess what, nobody has actually seen that diary. At the trials one witness said the book existed and it is mentioned only at what was likely to be a show trial so that King Matthias would not have to pay a large debt. If you don't know about show trials, check out the communists and Eastern Europe to see modern day show trials.
I already added a comment that it is impossible to find out if she committed these crimes but the historical trends make it questionable.
Sheldonkooger Posted Apr 3, 2008
As I've mentioned elsewhere,authors writing on the subject make repeated reference to diaries wherein Erzsebet describes committing acts of torture and muder and lists the names of her victims. These authors always claim that these diaries are in the possession of Hungary's National Archives, but have been kept secret or are not available to the public, or some other excuse as to why nobody has ever read them.
Maybe it was diferent in the communist era, but I sent an email to the National Archives, asking them about these diaries, and in less than twelve hours I'd received a very helpful response detailing what documents they possessed, what sections of the archives I should contact for further information, and brief instructions as how I could get copies of all these documents.
So much for the impenetrable web of secrecy and bureaucracy!
Of course there are no diaries. They exist only in the testimony of people who were trying to tell their torturers what they wanted to hear in order to make the pain stop.
Marie19 Posted May 11, 2008
TerrenceMr, why do you say that the Denise Bathory site is fiction? I am not arguing that it isn't, since I question it myself, but from all I can see it appears genuine. I'd be very interested if you have any proof that it is fiction. That site has been one of my main Erezebet sources, so if it's fiction I'll have to rethink/reorganize things. I thank you in advance for responding.
Angelsbabe_1975 Posted Jan 8, 2009
Hey! Watch the 2006 'horror' film 'Stay Alive' with Malcolm in the middles' Frankie Muniz and Heroes' Peter Petrelli. It's about a ps2 game that's all about Elizabeth Bathory and features her diary etc. The film's based in America, but you get the story.
Also: http://www.weird-encyclopedia.com/Bathory-Elizabeth.php is quite informative.
I get the impression that she was maybe a frustrated/insane intelligent (maybe a genius driven mad by not enough brain.mind stimuli) who liked to inflict pain and cause death by lots of ways. A 15th Century version of quite a few people in this Century (Mostly people with power eg: Adi Amin, Saddam Hussain, Osama Bin-Laden etc etc etc who have or nearly got to that number of deaths. Scarily, some are still in power!)
Most women keep diaries and books of lists so the diary/book probably is more fact than fiction.
The man who created Bathory.org is a descendant of Elizabeth so in my opinion, for him to create this site is very brave of him. The nasty emails he must get, and he hasn't even done anything wrong. 1500's is history and he shouldn't be held responsible or get any negative comments as he is only linked through his family/bloodline.
I can trace my family back to 1200 and there's some family ties and events in there that I'm not overly pleased about but there's lots that I am proud of. But I wouldn't expect the people who own my ancestors home to hold me responsible for it's upkeep or ownership!
I'll stop now!
TerrenceM Posted Apr 23, 2009
First, I am not a historian and am just studying Eastern European history, so please investigate for yourself. From my readings about those times I have looked for consistent patterns across many history texts, for an example The History of Hungary by Sugar, Janak, and Frank. At this time show trials, aka witch trials, similar to the Communist show trials in the fifties, were common. Furthermore the Hapsburgs have a history at that time of attacking opponents with propaganda, as well.
The general pattern appears to be that when a population is under extreme stress, i.e. the Ottoman Turks and Hapsburgs producing terror in the population, then the populace can relieve stress through violence and murder, usually through fake trials and false legal systems. The Black Death in Europe and the resulting witch trials by the Kings and Church show a similar pattern. This stress otherwise would be turned against the ruling class. I believe that you can see this with the conflicts with the Taliban in the Middle East today. In any case after reviewing the overall history and behaviour of that specific time it becomes likely that the stories about Bathory might be politically motivated and not true.
The Bathory web site is authored by a man who takes these stories at face value. He has also made money by creating related art works, appeared on the History Channel Show and otherwise made himself famous as a modern day representative of the Bathory family. I don't see that he has made any serious efforts at uncovering facts or analysing, even as shallowly as I do, historical evidence and patterns.
Now indeed mythology can be revealing. For example Greek-Roman myths contain much historical and biological facts underlying them, even medieval myths are related to distorted facts from distant lands. However, the myths surrounding Bathory reveals far more about the age inventing them than about the historical person, whoever she was.
TerrenceM Posted Apr 23, 2009
There are probably at least hundreds of descendants of Bathory. The upper level aristocracy married across all of Europe. For one simple example, even the current English monarchs have German and Hungarian ancestors.
I don't see Bathory as brave, perhaps he is interesting as an artist but as a historian he simply spreads tales that may or may not be true. There is a lot of money and also for some, personal psychological investments, in the Bathory story so everyone has a good reason to propagate it with no respect for what may be the either the general history at that time and place or any facts.
CalamityMae Posted Nov 26, 2009
I am a Psychology Major going for my Ph.D. I have taken an interest in Bathory. While I will be the first to agree that she was a sadistic person. I have to ask myself, how many of us have considered some of her methods and how many of us do not envy her forwardness. She was not brave but she was diabolical in her own right. I would love to get my hand on her diary. I do believe it exists but I do not believe that any of the writers that have claimed to have knowledge of it contents. If any thing it has been kept safe within the Bathory family.
Please keep in mind that it is the mystery of what really happened that helps the writers keep up interested in their books. I think its healthy for us not to know who is right and what the actual events surrounding this woman is. It keeps your imagination alive.
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