A Conversation for The Republic
Thatcher
IanG Started conversation Dec 12, 2000
"Oligarchy [...] A government of this kind was what Margaret Thatcher was aiming for when she said, 'There is no such thing as society'"
Much as I hate to defend her, that infamous comment was meant as an observation, not an aspiration. So it wasn't what she was aiming for, it was where she thought she had got to. And certain recent events in the news give the distinct impression that we haven't made any progress since.
Thatcher
Casanova the Short Posted Dec 12, 2000
My understanding of that line was that she thought that everyone was a capitalist, and that therefore goverment should be geared towards completely helping the sixty million individuals in the United Kingdom, not the United Kingdom as a whole. This suggested that nurses, teachers, firefighters and a whole host of other professionals are only working for the money, and not for any kind of charitable cause. For instance a nurse is only a nurse because he or she gets paid, not because he or she is helping his or her community.
Thatcher
IanG Posted Dec 13, 2000
What most people don't know about that "There's no such thing as society" quote is that it actually came (so I'm told) from an interview with Woman's Own magazine. (And by the way it was completely ignored for weeks until there was a lull in the news; the outrage was engineered by the media.) Here's the entire quote:
"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant'. 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problems on society. And you know, there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours. People have got their entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There is no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."
That's the original context of the quote. I don't know what you think, I but to me it seems pretty clear that the popular interpretation of the quote is almost the exact opposite of what she seems to be saying here. This is essentially speaking in favour of social responsibility.
There are other bits you can take in isolation too: "no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first" would be pretty easy to spin as being an ultra-laissez-faire capitalist view. But given the that the rest of the quote goes on to talk about our obligations to look after others, I think this would show a pretty cynical disregard for the overall message.
In particular I think people misinterpret the "people must look after themselves" as implying "so that means the government don't have to". But I think that's just plain misinterpretation, since the piece is clearly arguing in favour of supporting others. My understanding is that it says this: before you can look after your neighbour you must look after yourself - you can only make a useful contribution (and the piece seems to argue that you *should* make a useful contribution) if you don't adopt an attitude of complete helplessness.
To rephrase it another way: if everyone decided to stop making any effort, and simply rely on the state, what would the state rely on? A state-supplied safety net will only work if everyone makes their best effort to stay out of it; if on the other hand too many people start treating it as a comfortable hammock, it will eventually collapse under the weight. At least that's what I *think* she was trying to say, but obviously I don't speak for Thatch...
To reiterate, I'm not a Thatcherite. I just have strong feelings about misrepresentation.
Thatcher
Casanova the Short Posted Dec 14, 2000
You're "I'm not a Thatcherite..." sounds a lot like "I'm not being politically correct, but..." another adage of the circling Conservative :D
Anyway, you're right. The entire quote is a lot more socialistic than the one line I'd heard before. Shows what happens if you trust the media...
Thatcher
Casanova the Short Posted Dec 14, 2000
I think :D and should be interpreted as and . Bloody emoticon generator and its half-arsed applications.
Thatcher
IanG Posted Dec 15, 2000
Well whenever I've taken any of the various tests to work out where your political sympathies lie I've always come out as somewhere between liberal and left wing, so I don't *think* I'm a Thatcherite...
My defence here is based entirely on the sense of outrage I feel when I or someone else is misrepresented. For some reason it's something I feel very strongly about.
Thatcher
Casanova the Short Posted Dec 16, 2000
I usually get flung into the far left wing, although most online political tests are American, so even William Hague would look like a lefty.
Understand perfectly the thing about misrepresentation though, I often get into trouble for defending unpopular people just 'cos they said something that people take out of context. I think Hitler was one, but I can't remember what I was saying - probably about his resurrection of the German economy.
Thatcher
IanG Posted Dec 17, 2000
I seem to have this compulsion to try and understand *everyone's* point of view, which I think is what drives me to play devil's advocate, and leap to the defense of the indefensible...
Thatcher
Casanova the Short Posted Dec 29, 2000
Nothing cannot be defended. There are things that cannot be defended WELL, but given enough time, research and rhetoric you should be able to prove anything.
All a bit 1984, isn't it?
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Thatcher
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