A Conversation for The Anglican Choral Tradition
IanG Posted Oct 28, 2000
Actually I'm not an organist. I was a choral scholar at my college choir (and I think Joanna is too). And I was a music scholar at my school before that. I play piano, trombone and tuba, but not the organ.
The Eucharist is a form of mass isn't it? To be honest I'm not familiar with the Catholic liturgy, but the Eucharist is the service with the whole body and blood thing (or bread and wine - transubstantiation is optional for anglicans), and most devout anglicans go to a Eucharist on a regular basis. In my experience it's usually been a sung Eucharist on a Sunday morning, but I guess my experience is somewhat choir-centric. I thought that mass was just what the Catholics called the same thing.
The only time the term 'mass' has usually been used in my experience has been when it's a requiem mass. But these are structurally the same as a eucharist more or less, but with a few optional extras. (In fact I've sung in eucharist services where a requiem mass was used as the setting.)
Or possibly my memory's going.
You can call me TC Posted Nov 10, 2000
I just thought eucharist and communion were the same thing. But there must be a difference or we wouldn't need two words, would we?
Don't rely on words I use because
a) I had partly a Catholic education
b) that was a very long time ago
c) I haven't lived in England for over 25 years and some less used words may also have got muddled up in my memory.
But surely in any classical sung mass and in the communion service everywhere you still have the order:
IanG Posted Nov 10, 2000
I *think* the distinction is that 'communion' refers specifically to the sacraments, whilst 'eucharist' refers to the service. It's perfectly possible to go to a eucharist without taking communion - just don't go up for the bread and wine.
You can call me TC Posted Nov 11, 2000
Just as a matter of interest, in Germany they do not take wine (at least not in Catholic Mass) except on Maundy Thursday. It can cause some awkward situations if you don't realise this. Especially when I went to Mass at home with my family, and we were expected to drink the wine there.
I wasn't confirmed until I had left home to live abroad so hadn't been in the habit of taking Communion much in Anglican churches, but I remembered that you certainly took wine in England - Anglican and Catholic.
And another useful tip for visiting Church in Germany. You stand for prayers. you only kneel twice during the whole service, just before and just after the Sanctus.
I might put all this in my GerManiaConnection articles, not only such things, but about the organisation of the Churches altogether, because it is very different in Germany.
IanG Posted Nov 28, 2000
I think these sorts of things have varied during history, as well as from country to country and from denomination to denomination - there were times in the UK where communion was something you only took a very few times during your life. These days it can be a weekly occurance (or even more often). Indeed I know some people who really don't like to go for a whole week without taking communion.
wigmore Posted Feb 21, 2004
The 1662 order of service in the Anglican church has a subtly different order from the Roman Catholic and modern Anglican order, placing the Gloria at the end. As well as making the end of the service slightly more cheerful,this provides for a better musical balance, as the Gloria and the Creed are by far the longest movements of the service.
In practice, very few Anglican services follow the 1662 order and most do end the sung part of the service with the Agnus Dei.
Other parts of the Anglican communion service which were in the past often set for singing but are rarely sung today include the Ten Commandments (as an alternative to the Kyrie Eleison) and the Sursum Corda.
You can call me TC Posted Feb 22, 2004
I've been thinking about this again recently. Thanks for that input.
What's worrying me at the moment is the who, when and why of that first posting being yikesed. I have no idea what question I posed back in September 2000 on the subject of sacred music which can possibly have broken any rules.
Could you tell me what the sursum corda is exactly, please.
And may I, in return, offer you a hand finding your way around. I see you are new. (Or just an old hand with a new U number?)
Beavers Posted Feb 27, 2004
In the 1552 Revision of BCP, Cranmer incorporated the Agnus Dei into the Gloria. That's why there an extra 'thou that takest away the sins of the world, have mercy upon up'. The idea was to receive communion as soon as possible, rather than have the consecrated elements sitting around on the table and possible becoming the object of Popish veneration. The 'Benedictus qui venit' was deleted after the Sanctus.
The Kyrie eleison, Benedictus and Agnus Dei crept back in during the late 19th century as a consequence of the Catholic revival in the Church of England.
Whether you use 'The Lord's Supper', 'Communion', 'Eucharist' or 'Mass' is really a function of how 'High' or 'Low' Cnurch you are.
wigmore Posted Mar 17, 2004
Some settings of the communion service contain settings of the "Sursum Corda", which consists of the following responses:
(priest) "Lift up your hearts"
(response) "We lift them up unto the Lord"
(priest) "Let us give thanks unto our Lord God"
(response) "It is meet and right so to do".
You can call me TC Posted Mar 17, 2004
That's my favourite part of the ceremony. Wherever I have been to Chruch (Anglican Church in England, Catholic Church in Germany) it has always been the same. I think it's a lovely thought that someone put it to music. Must try and get hold of it.
I wonder if the first posting in this thread was removed because of the recent spate of automatic moderation, for which Nathalie has now apologised. Somehow I think it was before that happened, though. Most worrying. And I didn't get an e-mail saying it had been yikesed, either.
You can call me TC Posted Mar 17, 2004
Sorry - I got something mixed up there. Still - it is a shame that the Sursum Corda isn't sung more often - I can imagine versions of it going down really well in Gospel Masses or the like.
Rockhound Posted Oct 26, 2004
I hadn't realised the sursum corda wasn't sung in a lot of places - but I guess I've been lucky to be involved with two churches with reasonably strong musical/choral traditions. Those that do seem to vary between relativey simple chant-based settings and (often more elaborate "here goes the choir again!") ones that have been written as part of the wider setting (Kyrie, Gloria etc.)
You can call me TC Posted Oct 26, 2004
*still trying to figure out why the first posting in this thread - of all threads! - was yikesed* can we have it back please?
ecnice Posted Feb 27, 2005
I'm from the Anglican Church of Canada and there's a Book of Alternative Services that is widely used. This prayer book has very well labelled sections of the liturgy. Here is how the different terms are used in this prayer book:
"The Holy Eucharist" refers to the name of the rite.
"The Celebration of the Eucharist" section follows immediately after "The Peace" and begins with "The Preparation of the Gifts" where "It is appropriate that a hymn be sung during the offertory."
"The Communion" is within "The Celebration of the Eucharist" section in "The Holy Eucharist". It follows "The Breaking of the Bread" and begins when
"The celebrant invites the people to share in communion and may say,
The gifts of God for the People of God.
People: Thanks be to God.
The celebrant and people then receive communion. The sacrament is given with the following words.
The body of Christ (given for you).
The blood of Christ (given for you).
The body of Christ, the bread of heaven.
The blood of Christ, the cup of salvation.
The communicant responds each time, Amen.
During the breaking of the bread and the communion, psalms, hymns, and anthems such as those on pp. 226-228 may be sung.
At the conclusion of the communion, silence may be kept."
That ends "The Communion". Then, the "Prayer after Communion" and "Dismissal" sections complete "The Celebration of the Eucharist" and in turn ends "The Holy Eucharist".
Key: Complain about this post
- 1: Trillian's child (Sep 27, 2000)
- 2: IanG (Oct 28, 2000)
- 3: You can call me TC (Nov 10, 2000)
- 4: IanG (Nov 10, 2000)
- 5: You can call me TC (Nov 11, 2000)
- 6: IanG (Nov 28, 2000)
- 7: wigmore (Feb 21, 2004)
- 8: You can call me TC (Feb 22, 2004)
- 9: Beavers (Feb 27, 2004)
- 10: You can call me TC (Feb 27, 2004)
- 11: wigmore (Mar 17, 2004)
- 12: You can call me TC (Mar 17, 2004)
- 13: You can call me TC (Mar 17, 2004)
- 14: Rockhound (Oct 26, 2004)
- 15: You can call me TC (Oct 26, 2004)
- 16: ecnice (Feb 27, 2005)