A Conversation for Mohammed - the Prophet


Post 1

Gaggle Halgrunt

This post has been removed.

Muhammad murderer and paedophile

Post 2

Rik Bailey

Hi Kuro Sawa, have alredy dealt with this with you but for sake of others reading here is the explanations.

I will give a quote to support that Aysha was older now:

"In my opinion, the age of Aysha has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective standpoint. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayeshas (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

* Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

* It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.

* Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)

* Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)

* According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

* According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.

* According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

* Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.

* According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.

* Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

* According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

* According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

So I think that settles the Paedophile story.

As for the Jew massacre thing….

Ok to get a idea of the current climate when this so called massacr took place I will take you through a brief history of the period before this effent, but only the bits that deal with Muslim - Jew relations to make it shorter.

Firstly when Muhammad and his followers emigrated to Yathrib (It was changed to Medina shortly after the Prophets arrival) there where three then famous Jewish tribes living within the demographic region. They where the ban Qainuqa, Banu An-Nadeer and the Banu Quraizah respectively

While the vast majority of the people living in Yathrib celebrated the arrival of the Prophet Muhammad the Jewish tribes did not.
It is thought that this is due to the change in social regime that was going to take place due to the arrival of the Muslims and there being put in charge of the city. This is because the Jews had been using riba (interest) to get hold of wealth and land of the non Jews in the area but under the new social regime this practice would not be allowed meaning that the Jews would loose a lot of money from the interest on loans and such like.

there is an interesting event that took place on the first day of the Prophets arrival that shows the Jews mentality towards the Muslims.
The story goes that Abdullah bin Salam (the most learned rabbi amoungst the Jews in Madina)went to see the Prophet after he (Muhammad) had just arrived. Abdullah asked the Prophet various questions to ascertain that Muhammad was actually a real Prophet. As soon as the Prophet had given his answer the rabbi embraced Islam, but then went on to say that if his people found out they would advance false arguments against him i.e. ruin his reputation.

The Prophet Muhammad sent for some Jews and enquired about Abdullah. The Jews testified to Abdullah's scholorly aptitude and virtuous standing within the community. the prophet then disclosed to them that he, the rabbi, had become a Muslim by embracing Islam. the Jews instantly changed what they had said by saying that he was the most evil of all evils.

It is also reported that Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Jews! For Allah. By Allah the only One you know that he is the messanger of Allah sent to people with the truth." They replied, " You are lying."

Sahih Al-Bulchari 1/459, 556 and 561.

Soon after arriving in Medina the Prophet Muhammad set about making various treaties with the non-Muslim's in the area around madina. this treaties enabled those under Medina rule to live peacefully ynder the new Islamic rule and gave full rights for practising ones own faith unhindered.

while the Jews had shown a level of resentment towards Islam and the Muslims they had not actually shown any hostility or resistence towards the Muslims. An so as part of a bigger inter0Muslim relations treaty the Prophet went to each of the Jewish tribes and concluded a treaty with them.

this treaty and Muhammads intention did not involve any hostility towards the Jews in any form, be that seizure of land and wealth or forced expulsion. The Key provisiions of the treaty was as follows:

* The Jews of bani 'awf (the collective of the Jews around Madina) are one community with the believers. the Jews will profess their religion and the Muslims theirs.

* The Jews will be responcible for their expenditure and the Muslims for theirs.

* Each party shall hold counsil with the other. Mutual relation shall be founded on righteousness: sin is totally excluded.

* Neither shall commit sins to the prejudice of the other.

* The wrong party shall be aided.

* If attacked by a third party, each shall come to the aid of each other.

* The Jews shall contribute to the cost of war so long as they are fighting alongside the believers.

* Madina shall remain sacred and inviolable for all that join this treaty.

* Should any disagreement arise between the signatories to this treaty, then Allah the All-High and His Messenger shall settle the dispute.

* The signatories of this treaty shall boycott the Quraish commercially and will abstain from extending any support to them.

* each shall contribute to the defending of Medina, in case of foreign attack, in its respective area.

* This treaty shall not hinder either party from seeking lawful revenge.

Ibn Hisham 1/503, 504.

The jews of Medina started to get more active in their anti Islam attitude after the battle of Badr (Ramadhan 17th 2 A.H).

For instance a old Jewish man called Shas bin Qais sent a youth of his to sit amoungst a group of Muslims and to remind the Muslims in that group of the Bu'ath war. the bu'ath war was a pre Islamic war and in this particler group of Muslim's half where on one side and the other half was on the other side in that conflict.

the youth also recited verse that one side had made upto satirize the other side and vice versa. the old man scheme was to sow discord between the Muslims and his idea actually worked and the Muslims started fighting each other as pre Islamic fanaticism took over.

when the Prophet Muhammad heard of this event he rebuked the Muslim's by saying:

"O Muslims1 by Allah! have you entered the state of pre-Islamic ignorance while I am still amoungst you, after Allah guided you to Islam, honored you with it, by it he cut the fetters of ignorance from your necks, and delivered you from disbelief and united your hearts?"

after hearing this the Muslims realised their folly and embraced each other and for gave each other for their behaviour.

Ibn Hisham 1/555, 556

but though events like this rose after the battle of Badr such things had been happening from the start of the Muslim's arrival in Medina.

For example if they (the Jew's) owed money to someone who had become a Muslim they would say that the basis of their agreement was no longer valid due to the person's they owed money to changing faith, while when someone who had borrowed money from the Jews and had then changed faith to Islam the Jews persistantly pressured them by their asking for the money owed to them.

It was also around the time of just after the battle of badr that the Jews of Qainuqa breached the treay they had signed with the Muslims.
they started causing trouble, jeering at Muslims, harrising them violently at bazaars and frightening Muslim women.

Ibn Hisham reported from Abu 'Aun that an arab woman arrived at a bazaar of Banu Qainuqa to sell an item which she did. afterwards while she was at the goldsmiths, they (the Jews) wanted to see her face and so the goldsmith fastened the border of her garment to the back of it with out her realising. When she got up to leave it revealed her private area and the Jewish men started to laugh at her. She fixe her garments and left, but a Muslim man who had seen what happened was very angry and attacked and killed the goldsmith, the other Jews then attacked and killed him. the family of the Muslim man called the other Muslims for help and the conflict between them and banu Qainuqa began.

Ibn hishan 2/47, 48

the Prophet Muhammad marched his soldiers to the Jews of Qainuqa's fort and laid siege to it for 15 days. after which the Jews surrendered and were expelled from the sorrounding area of Madina.

after this and various other incidents the other Jewish tribes fell between two acts of behaviour, that of acceptance and negligence, but still plotted conspiracys against the Muslims.

they made secret alliances against the Muslims with the Quraish that went against the treaty they had signed with the Muslims.

'Awnul - Ma'bud 3/ 116-117

Though the Jews openly declared hatred and enmity towards the Muslims they were very carefull to not do acts of hostilitie openly that might lead to conflict with the Muslims.

The Prophet so far had been very patient with them but they ended up going to far in their provocative deeds.

For a example there is an incident called the tradedy of the well of Ma'unah. what happend basically was that a man came to the Prophet and invited him to send a deglegation of Muslim's to the people of Najd under his personally protection while in their lands.

but it turned out that this welcome was actually a lie and a group of 70 Muslim's were ambushed and killed. Only a few of them survived and Amir bin Umaiyah killed two men from Bani Kilab on the way back to Madina thinking he was getting revenge for the treachery just commited. he then found out that they had a pledge of protection from the Prophet and so he went to the Prophet and told him what he had done.

becasue of this the Prophet said to him "you have killed two people; their blood money shall be a dept I have to discharge" and so went about collecting the blood money for the two people killed.

Ibn Hisham 2/183 - 188 Sahih Al-Bukhari 2/ 584- 586 and Zadul-Ma'ad 2/ 109-110.

Upon hearing about this incident the Jews of Nadeer said that they would like to share in paying the blood money and asked the Prophet and his companions to sit undera wall of their house and to wait.
The Jews held a short privat meeting and one of them, Amr bin Jahsh, suggested that he climb up the wall and drop a large millstone on the Prophets head.

Salim bin Mishkam cautioned them from taking such action as it was to risky if it got found out who was responcible and would be a hugh breech in the pact they had signed with the Muslims.

the Prophet though found out about this and left back to Madina with the companions. He issued an order that the Jews of Nadeer must leave Madina or they would be forcibly removed.

The ews of Nadeer refused and so the Prophets army laid siege to their forts for six nights. After this they offered to colply with the Prophets order even thoughing that at the time they had the strategic advantage, because the hep from the Quraizah had not materilased.
The Prophet accepted their offer and allowed them to leave peacefully with all that they and their camels could carry, excluding weaponry.

After this event a party made up of 20 chiefs of the Jews (Some from Bani Nadeer) went to Makkah, Ghatafan and many other confederates of disbelief in the area and formed unholy alliences with them and also incited hatred towards the Muslim's with them.

Because of this a massive army was formed and set out to engage Madina. The army consisted of elements from the Quraish, Kinanah and tribes frm Banu Sulaim, Ghatafan and many many other tribes.
the army was some 10,000 strong and actually out numbered the whole population of Muslims living in Madina at that time.
Muslim scouts though kept the Muslims informed of the armys advance as Madina had been on an alert state due to the continued betrayal of treaties.

after a council of Muslim military leaders and the Prophet it was decided that several trenchs should be dug as a defensive line. the prophet and any other person strong enough and old enough bega to dig several trenchs.

Due to the trench idea not being seen before in arabia it threw of the forces against Medina and so the Prophet and his army of 3000 men was able to hold them back.

But during the siege the banu Quraizah , whom had a treaty with the Muslim's detailed earlier, started planing war operations against the Muslims. To help with this a few Jewish men where sent to investigate the Muslim deploymant and scout out likely targets. It was decided that thet should concentrate their forces against the undefended women and children whom where behind the Muslim lines where it was safe from the forces out side the city.

Ibn Hishan 3/337

But lookily it did not got past the planning stage as the scouts failed to return. this is because Safiyah ,the daughter of Abdul-Muttalib, happened to spot one of the Jewish men whom was acting suspious around the camp where the women and children where. She grabbed a tent pole and managed to defeat and kill the Jewish scout. She then alert Hasan and told him to get the Jewish mans weapon and armour but he told her he did not need any armour.

See Ibn Hishan 2/228 and fathul-bari 6/285.

The Prophet heard of this and sent four prominent leaders to find out what was happening. they found out that the Jews where openly rejecting the treaty and was supplying the invading forces with weapons and armour and other supplies.
After the Prophet was told this he realised that if the Jews let the forces go through their parts then his forces could be attacked from behind. So he sent a force to protect the Women and Children while he set out what to do next.

A man from the tribe Ghatafan came before the Prophet and told him that he had secretly converted and wanted to help. The Prophet told him about the predicament they where in and asked him to do what ever he could.

The man was called Nu'aim bin Mas'ud and what he did was to act as a messenger between the Quraish, Ghatafan and Jews of Quraizah. but in stead of passing on messages he started to sow seeds of doubt through their forces regarding their being able to trust each other. If I had more time I would go in to more detail about this as what he did was really clever. Anyway this led to the invading forces morale lowering and in the end the forces broke up and disengaged the Muslims.

After this the Prophet and his forces went and sieged the forts of the Jews of Quraizah.

The chief of the Jews of Quraizah Ka'b bin Asad realised that their betrayal of the treaty was a big mistake and issued an ultimation to his people, in which he gave them three choices:

* To embrace Islam and consequently their lives would be saved.

* to kill their wives and children so the Muslims would not have access to them and then die fighting the Muslim forces.

* To lauch a surprise attack on a saturday, a day they were understood not to have been able to fight on.

The Jews wished not to do any of these things and in a fit of rage the chief cursed his own people for being so indecisive.

The siege did not last long and they resigned themselves to what ever fate the Muslims had instore for them. The Prophet ordered that all the men should have their hands bound. The Tribe Al-Aws asked the Prophet to be lenient and suggested that Sa'd bin Mu'adh, a former allie, be charged with giving the Jews verdict, to which the Prophet agreed.

Sa'd at first was hesitant as he believed one side or the other would not like his ruling. but he recieved reassurances that what ever his verdict both sides will fully accept and comply with it.
So sa'd complied to the request and then stated the Jews own book at them and said that the women and children should be taken prisoner, the wealth should be devided between the Muslim fighters and that all the Men should be executed for the ugly treachery the Jews had commited towards the Muslims.

as both parties had agreed to fullfil his verdict the Prophet order this to happen and between six to seven hundred were executed. But any of the Jews who embraced Islam was spared and allowed to keep their wives, children and wealth.

Sura (al-Ahzab was revealed concerning the basic issues relating to the believers and hypocrites during the battle of the confederats and the consequences of the Jews treachery and their breech of the covenant.


Post 3

Researcher 3705245

This post has been removed.

Muhammad murderer and paedophile

Post 4

Rik Bailey

yawn very boring. troll.


Post 5

Researcher 3705245

This post has been removed.


Post 6

Gaggle Halgrunt

I have been deemed a troll! My original posting (posted a year and a half ago) wasn't racist, homophobic, or sexually explicit, and wasn't intended to instigate hatred, but it was having a dig at religion (or Muhammad in this case). It was arguably inflammatory, but this was part of its intention - to raise an objective discussion over the suject, and Adib subsequently responded in a mature manner.

This moderation/deletion is an example of nannying political correctness. Is it also a consequence of fear of the response that such allegations against the founder of Islam would generate in its followers?

None of the Abrahamic-based monotheistic religions are fluffy sweetness and niceness, and all have a lot to answer for in their histories. I suppose Richard Dawkins would also be moderated on this site for calling religion the root of all evil. Such moderation/deletion is the metaphorical ostrich sticking its head in the sand.


Post 7

Rik Bailey

I agree. The first post was fine really. I had no problem with it, simply put a statement made on what some one knows, and if you can't say that then their is no room to learn the truth.

Te other posts that have been removed by a proper troll is fine. But the first post shoud have stayed, nothing wrong with it.


Post 8

Gaggle Halgrunt

Thank you Adib.
I know we have had our differences of opinion, but I completely respect yours and the way you have answered my (potentially inflammatory) statements/questions.
I have no idea what the other deleted posts were about, but I see that that person has had numerous other posts deleted. I think my post was caught up in the crossfire!

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