h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

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Hmm. There are differences, but I think you're overstating them to call them vast. Personally, I find UK English and US English are remarkably similar.

There are dialects of English in the UK (eg. Geordie and Scots) that differ much more from what you might call 'the standard' than American English does.

<< despite minor differences in vocabulary, spelling, and syntax, and apart from context, it is often difficult to determine whether a work was written in England, the United States, or any other part of the English-speaking world>>

http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761564797/American_English.html

I think they're vast. You can tell UK English apart from American English on just about every word. I know I can, anyway. It's not generally difficult for an American to understand a Briton (or vice versa, I think) but that doesn't change the fact that their two systems of pronunciation are much different and independently developed.

That quote, I think, is referring to the written word. This series of entries is referring to accents and pronunciation.

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Hmm. Fair point. But to call the difference in pronunciation 'vast' you'd have to see major difficults in comprehension between US and UK speakers of English.

<< You can tell UK English apart from American English on just about every word>>

Yes, but you can tell a Cockney from a Brummie or a Scouser or a Geordie on just about every word, yet they're all British accents.

You said it: "It's not generally difficult for an American to understand a Briton". Exactly. It's generally very easy (except in extreme cases, such as broad Glaswegian (Scotland). You can't talk about vast differences between dialects when people understand each other with such ease, which we do.

I've always found the Americans I've encountered crystal clear to understand, easier in fact than some of the more extreme British accents. I honestly have.

There are differences, but they are minor, not vast. Sure, the word "vast" here is perhaps a bit of a subjective thing, but I don't think it's appropriate when describing the difference between US and UK English generally, or even in terms of accent.

As a comparison, Azeri and Turkish are similar but have differences - much more so than US English and UK English. But using my Turkish I found I could communicate effectively with Azeris, even though theirs is technically a different language from Turkish. Therefore I wouldn't say there was a vast difference between Azeri and Turkish, even though they are technically different languages.

(Sometimes it's difficult to say when two dialects become two distinct languages: it's generally assumed to be when mutual intelligibility ceases to exist. I've heard it argued that Norwegian and Swedish are really the same language. Of course they are generally regarded as two separate languages, but even there it would be going too far to say the difference between them was "vast".)

Of course US English is not even a different language but actually a dialect of British English (it's not a dialect of French or Spanish and it didn't appear out of thin air). While US English differs from the UK version more than Australian English does, the difference is still relatively small.

The remarkable thing about US and UK English is how similar they are, and this has often struck me when I've encountered Americans in the UK, Turkey, Russia or elsewhere.

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Here's where your 'vast' comment came in:

"America's popularly spoken language is sometimes called 'American', because the difference between British English (that is, English spoken in the United Kingdom) and American English is vast. The differences in pronunciation and vocabulary between the various American dialects is small compared to the divide between the Americans and the British."

It was a general statement about the languages.

As for the second point you make here (that there's a greater difference between UK English and US English than there is between the various dialects of US English) that could well be true but I'd hesitate to say the same applies in reverse: I'm not sure that the differences in pronunciation and vocabulary between the various British dialects are small compared to the divide between British and American, since there are some very strange and diverse British dialects.

Sorry for waffling on. My point is that we understand each other too easily for the difference to be called vast.

I know we have a profusion of American films and TV stuff in the UK that would explain why we understand American so easily, but US people also understand British very easily, so that can't be the sole reason.

"But to call the difference in pronunciation 'vast' you'd have to see major difficults in comprehension between US and UK speakers of English."

Nope, not really. I don't know why that would be.

"You can't talk about vast differences between dialects when people understand each other with such ease, which we do."

Sure can. Comprehension is an *entirely* different kettle of fish from pronunciation. They're related, obviously. But just because someone says something different does not necessarily mean it's difficult to understand.

When you talk about differences in pronunciation, you don't talk about comprehension. You talk about vowel changes, 'r' drops, tongue placement, nasal sounds, etc. It just isn't simple enough to say that comprehension is possible, so they're not much different. In fact, lack of comprehension can just as likely be caused by alternate usage of vocabulary, rhythm of speech, pace and plenty of other factors other than just pronunciation.

And you have to look at this in context. Sure, if you look at the difference between English and Swahili, the differences between British English and American English. But within the realm of the English language, the difference *is* vast.

"I've always found the Americans I've encountered crystal clear to understand, easier in fact than some of the more extreme British accents. I honestly have."

I can say the same about Britons and Americans. I have a hard time understanding the Appalachian American accent in particular, and the Cajun accent. Just about any British accent is not only easier on the ears but more comprehensible.

"Of course US English is not even a different language but actually a dialect of British English"

It's a dialect of the English language, as is British English. While British English came first, to say that British English is English is saying that one dialect is the standard dialect for a language, which is a very big no-no for linguists.

"It was a general statement about the languages."

It really wasn't. If you want to split hairs, I use the word 'spoken' in front of 'language' in the first sentence, referring to pronunciation and define British English to mean (in this context) "English spoken in the United Kingdom" Then I talk about the differences in pronunciation and vocabulary, which is a matter of dialect, not about languages in general. I'm just not sure where you're getting that from.

"I'm not sure that the differences in pronunciation and vocabulary between the various British dialects are small compared to the divide between British and American, since there are some very strange and diverse British dialects."

Good thing I never said that in the entry, isn't it?

And then there are the dialects of English spoken across my country, Canada. From county to county, province to province, some cannot even easily understand each other. And US Cajun is a derivative of the Acadian french of the Canadian maritime provinces, when the folks were expelled or killed by the "order of the day".

In the end, the use of the word "vast" is subjective here. Maybe some other word would suit WG that expresses the differences that are very much apparent, but not incomprehensible? Someone must have a thesauraus ...

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I got it from where you said:

"America's popularly spoken language is sometimes called 'American', because the difference between British English (that is, English spoken in the United Kingdom) and American English is vast."

That's where I got it from.

Perhaps you should make it clearer that you mean specifically pronunciation.

But generally there's no evidence that the difference between American (English as spoken in the US) and British (English as spoken in the UK) is vast. Certainly much less than the difference between Turkish and Azeri (and I wouldn't even call that a vast difference) or Russian and Ukrainian which my wife speaks. Russians and Ukrainians have great difficulty understanding each other, but they would never describe the differences between them as vast.

I agree American pronunciation does differ in many ways from British pronunciation, but I don't consider it vast. Perhaps that's because I'm comparing it to differences between other languages that are similar (eg. Spanish and Italian, Turkish and Azeri, Russian and Ukrainian).

Would you say the differences in pronunciation between peninsular Spanish and Latin American Spanish were vast?

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Do you know much about the different British accents? Have you ever been to the UK?

"Perhaps you should make it clearer that you mean specifically pronunciation."

It's perfectly clear. It says 'spoken', twice. I don't know how anyone could get any other meaning out of that sentence, if they actually read it.

"Would you say the differences in pronunciation between peninsular Spanish and Latin American Spanish were vast?"

You're talking apples and oranges. I'm comparing two dialects, not two languages. That's just totally different. It's a ridiculous comparison. And still you're saying that comprehension equates with dialectic difference when you say "Russians and Ukrainians have great difficulty understanding each other, but they would never describe the differences between them as vast." I'll say it again, comprehension and pronunciation are related, but they're two very separate things.

"Do you know much about the different British accents? Have you ever been to the UK?"

Nope. I do know that I can't understand a Cockney accent with ease. I think I've heard a 'Brummie' accent before and didn't really like that either. That's about it though. I'm fairly familiar with the British accent as a whole, but not all the variants necessarily. Not sure why that's relevant.

<< Not sure why that's relevant.>>

Why aren't you sure? Switch brain on and think: You're claiming that British pronunciation differs vastly from American pronunciation. Isn't it relevant to know a bit about British accents before you make such an assertion?

For example the dropped 'r' thing. Whether you pronounce the 'r' or drop it in words depends on what part of the UK you come from. West Country speakers stick theis 'r's all over the place, and the Scots 'r' is as strong as the Spanish or Russian ones.

"Isn't it relevant to know a bit about British accents before you make such an assertion?"

Sure, but I don't need to be an expert in all the accents under the umbrella of the British accent. I said I was familiar with the more common British accent. I don't know all of the accents, and probably wouldn't be able to notice distinctions between them all, just like it wouldn't be expected for a Briton to tell the difference between a Western Midland accent and a Midwestern Midland accent.

This is ridiculous though. I don't like being told to switch on my brain, when I'm acting completely rationally. I'm unsubscribing now. If you wish to challenge that in PR or EF, feel free, but please drop the matter for now because I'm starting to lose patience.

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Indeed it does say 'spoken' twice but it's not perfectly clear. If I say "The language spoken in Place X differs vastly from the language spoken in Place Y" you may quite reasonably wonder in what way it differs. In terms of grammar? Vocabularly? Pronunciation?

If you asked, I could answer "The language spoken in Place X differs vastly from the language spoken in Place Y in terms of its grammar and vocabularly, although the pronunciation is nearly identical."

Of course languages are spoken, unless they're dead languages.

The version of English written, printed and spoken in America is referred to as 'American' or 'American English'. The pronunciation of this version of English varies widely across the country. For instance, in California they say 'yous guyses' whereas, down here we say 'ya'll's'.

Books written by foreign authors are printed in American English. I think this is from the 1980s onwards as I have older books (1930s-1960s) by Agatha Christie, Mary Stewart and others printed in New York, but in British spellings and syntax.