A Conversation for Nursery Rhymes
Just because it's about nonsense rhymes doesn't mean you have to cite nonsense!
Spherical Cows Incorporated Started conversation Jul 7, 2000
I hate to be all grumpy and curmudgeonly (not to mention pedantic)... but surely one of the things that is desired in this guide is that it be accurate? This article, while very nicely written, contains large portions which are stuff and nonsense (to state things harshly).
The authors have done a fine job, and I respect their work, as well as the effort of everyone to contribute and the editors work in combining these into a smoothly flowing piece. But everybody should do some research too...
The idea that "ring-a-ring-o-rosie" is about the black death, for example, is widespread and obviously attractive. It is also wrong. The song is relatively recent, for one thing... and very likely originates in North America (a place where plagues were far worse, but also far less recorded since it was the indigenous peoples who died). A discussion of the plague interpretation (by someone who studies folklore) can be found at http://www.urbanlegends.com/misc/ring_around_the_rosie.html
(I don't know if that will work as a link... you may have to cut and paste).
There is also the fact that the plague's symptoms DIDN'T include the ones needed for this interpretation. Quoting from an article written in the late 19th century when it was still significant in some placesm, the initial symptoms of bubonic plague are:
"sometimes like those of ague (shivers, often long continued, and pains in the limbs) but combined with nervous symptoms. The patent becomes distracted, tosses about in constant fear [...]has a difficulty in understanding the questions put to him [...] He is often described as staggering like a drunken man. There is severe headache, thirst, and severe pain in the [stomach]. The eyes are red and turbid; the tongue swollen, dry, and fissured. This condition may pass into coma even before fever sets in. In other cases bilious vomitting is the earliest symptom. The fever which sets in may last for 24 to 30 hours [...] but in the most severe cases there may be little or not fever. [...]Buboes or glandular swellings are observerd in all except very rapidly fatal cases. [These are swellings of the lymp notes, under the arms or in the groin -- these could be the size of apples]. The buboes may supparate, and free discharge of matter from them has in all times been held to be a favourable sign [...]
Petechiae [black or blue bruise spots] on the skin have always been regarded as signs of the worst omen. Under the name of "tokens" they were regarded in the English epidemics [...] as the infallible signs of approaching death. They appear generally only a few hours before death."
An excellent desciption of a modern case (quite true to this description) is given in the book of medical cases _The Man Who Grew Two Breasts_ by Berton Roueche'
It doesn't sound like rings or roses. There is no sneezing (though in the pneumonic version you DO cough up lots of blood). In short EVERYTHING about this attributed meaning, from the point of view of folklore or medicine, fails to support the interpretation which the article uncritically states as fact.
The "Twelve Days of Christmas" as coded catachism is similarly not supported by evidence or logic. Indeed it is my experience that most (though not all) "hidden meaning" stories are false. We just LIKE to believe in such things so much that we don't stop to ask "is that TRUE?"
I'm sorry... this all probably comes across as didactic and petty. But I do feel that you ought to hold up some sort of critical analysis, not just accept every urban legend. The acceptance of an idea because it pleases our desire for a good story (or to feel smug about knowing a hidden truth) is sophmoric. Surely we can do better than that!
Just because it's about nonsense rhymes doesn't mean you have to cite nonsense!
NAITA (Join ViTAL - A1014625) Posted Oct 24, 2002
I don't find it didactic and petty. I would have posted the same myself if you hadn't beaten me to it by a couple of years.
(And to think I was just looking for information about whey...)
Just because it's about nonsense rhymes doesn't mean you have to cite nonsense!
Johanna the Psychotic Bananna - - I'm back!!! I missed you, H2G2 Posted Apr 20, 2004
i am just posting this as a bookmark
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Just because it's about nonsense rhymes doesn't mean you have to cite nonsense!
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