h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Sporky, Any reason why you don't join us merry faithless ones down at the FFFF?

I only question if there's a god/higher power/whatever because I want there to be one. I don't have faith in it.

well, it is because I don't know what the FFFF is, of course

Dear GreyRose,
No, my post was not responding to you in specific, it was in response to all comments. Your comments did not upset me in any way. I apologize in turn if I seemed to be attacking you at all. That was not in any way my intent.

Mr.Cynic ÅC€ said that 'the only reason people will not state they do not believe is because they are afraid of G.O.D.' And two or three people said that atheists were rebelling against some kind of religious repression in their youth. My comments were also in response to these points.

What I was clumsily trying to say was that there are many conclusions that proceed from a decision to be atheist/agnostic/religious. If we tangle them into the basic discussion of whether or not a conscious force is in charge it makes it more difficult to address that issue. And I really do think the 'whose in charge' part has to be considered separately and before the other concerns. [life after death, punishment, hell, etc.]

I had also tried to consider the agnostic in a more positive position than DNA's 'wishy-washy' when I said the 'doubt' could be in the persons inability to describe what is running things, rather than simply being undecided. I think many agnostics feel they just dont have enough information to decide either way. They dont necessarily have to fear something.

*mutters to self*
drat! I hate the awkwardness of forums, so hard to express one's self clearly on sensitive subjects. but there I go, blathering on anyway...
*wanders away shaking head in frustration with self*

}:=8

It's okay, bluDragon. It is hard to tell exactly what people mean in these forums. But I like them anyway. I'm sorry for getting the wrong idea and making you feel bad for making me feel bad.

Sporky, take a look here: http://www.h2g2.com/A254314 .
FFFF = The Freedom From Faith Foundation, a lovely little (is it still little?) club. Just take a look, you might like it .

Thank you bluDragon for a more sympathetic treatment of agnosticism than one usually gets around here...

Yes, the basic point is that humanity has been grappling with the question of existence and its meaning(lessness?) for as long as it's had a conscious mind to do this with, and we haven't arrived at any convincing conclusions as yet, as far as I'm aware, and I honestly don't see how we possibly ever can. It's not just a lack of information - I really don't think we have the mental equipment to answer such questions. A rational / logical approach, while useful in many other respects, will never be of any use in ascertaining the existence or otherwise of a deity - or other cosmic questions such as 'What is the meaning of life?' - simply because these questions are in a different ball park altogether...

So perhaps the best response is to take the advice of some great philosopher or other (Witgenstein?), and simply remain silent on matters which are ultimately unsanwerable, and concentrate on more ground-level concerns...

But then again why spoil a good argument...

I have been there before... perhaps it is time that I gave it another look

Lear says:

>The Atheist is so 'certain' of something which can surely never be proved, not by logic anyway - ie, the non-existence of God - and this is why the Atheist, too, is living in an illusion. You might call it a sort of 'illusion-in-reverse', or something...


What proof does one need that god doesn't exist?

1. Believers state that God refuses to prove his existence, yet wants us to believe in him. Believers also state that those who don't believe in him and his plan for salvation, will be lost forever. That alone denies us the right to be scientific.

2. Believers state that god cares about ALL people. When did he prove that? With all the hatred, wars, discrimination, dishonesty, unfairness and so on I can't sincerely believe that this god would be who they claim him to be.

3. If a god exists and is responsible for our existence, then he would also know our nature, and not ask of us to believe without proof. If he really existed and cared about his creation, he would not have started this nonsense, and he would certainly not base our salvation on the amount of faith we would have in him.

Any god that is surrounded by such contradictions can not be real! There is absolutely no proof for his existence, and the indirect evidence is proof enough for his non-existence. What is the illusion in my life?

Why wouldn't we simply say that the agnostics live in an illusion? The illusion that they will be forgiven for not outright dismissing an eventual god only because they don't SEE the proof that is so clearly before them?

I might just as easily say that with the way you put it, it's easy to see where you come from: you're simply afraid to choose. You want the freedom of not believing in some sort of God, combined with the safety of not having dismissed him outright. Now THAT's an illusion I would be ashamed of.

How would you feel about such a harsh statement?

And you dare say that atheists live in an illusion? I won't judge you, Lear. I only ask of you to retract that statement on atheists, because it's offensive.

But what has this 'wish to go on' have to do with agnosticism?

My point is: I'm an atheist and I too want something more. I simply hope that there will be something more which is NOT related to some obscure power that goes by the name or description of a god.
If there's nothing after this life, then it absolutely won't matter whether we are atheists, agnostics or 'true believers' of any kind.
And if there IS something after this life, then it still should not matter.

This point of view makes life quite acceptable: I do not worry about whether or not I will live on after this life. I make whatever I can from this life, and hope it will last for a considerable time.

The Mummy is now the second person to assume that just because I want an afterlife that means that I am 'worried' about it. What part of 'I really don't care what happens to me when I die' suggests that I am worried? I'm wondering if anyone actually reads my posts.

Another reason I choose not to deny the existence of a higher power is because I would like to think that my life has some meaning in the greater scale of things. It would be nice to have someone tell me what it all meant in the end.

I feel the need to say this again (and in all caps just to make sure it gets read) JUST BECAUSE I WANT SOMETHING MORE, DOES NOT MEAN IT KEEPS ME UP AT NIGHT. I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT IT. Just because I don't claim to know what's going on (something believers and atheists both do) doesn't mean that I don't want to take a stand just so I don't piss off some deity.

GreyRose

And Mummy, you said that you 'won't judge Lear'. I think it's a little late for that.

I sympathise with you GreyRose - I understand why you don't want to dismiss God. I know it doesn't worry you as in being frantic every night. But I do think that you actually refuse to dismiss God because you are trying to hold on to the utopia God is meant to offer. I see no sense in this belief and have dismissed it. I am much to cynical to expect a perfect afterlife .

The Mummy: Ahhh... finally some sense . I hold that view so strongly... I am getting very tierd with the argument the faithful keep putting towards God - there isn't any proof that he doesn't exist. Well...duh! What kind of proof would you expect? If a mountain never existed, how would you go about proving it never was? Not possible. Therefore it is impossible to disprove God's existance with material evidance. But there is logic after all... And hopefully, science will learn more and more and dismiss even more wild claims. The idea of God can't be disproved but lots of the things said in the bible can .
So if agnostics say atheist are in illusion (or disillusion) and as an atheist I believe vice-versa, it is safe to say one should be agnostic about which is in illusion . Ahhh... how easily words can make very little sense .

hi GreyRose,

What part of my question do YOU not seem to understand?

Sometimes there's a difference between what one person writes, and what another reads. I never read from your post, or intended to suggest, that you would be worrying about what happens. However, you *did* say that you are agnostic *because* you want to go on, and I'm still wondering how the 'wish to go on' explains being agnostic. To give you a pointer, I also explained how I believe that one can safely wish the same thing and still be atheist.

I simply don't see how keeping an open mind regarding some (improbable) deity would grant you an afterlife.
If getting an afterlife depends on 'being on good terms with some deity', then you can safely bet on not getting it, because you have already offended them by not outright having faith in them.

My argument in the post towards Lear is something for Lear to deal with. I won't judge them indeed! Whatever you may have read to be a judgement, I suggest you read it again.

bookmark

-jb

I'm glad, Mr. Cynic, that some people -such as you- still *do* read exactly what message I intend to convey.

Ah, if there is a God, and a heaven (and a hell) and this God is vindictive, I am guaranteed a fine possition in hell, with which to experience whatever tortures I might imagine as being very bad. I view even this existance as being better than the non-existance that I am sure awaits me at the end of my life.

Ah, well. What fun.

-jb

I myself am still not sure if there will be something after this life or not. I do certainly hope so. Some people just can't understand how I can do that, me being an atheist and all, and they're right: there's no logic in my hope.

I simply consider the following: life, as we know it, is still -for the most part- an unexplained phenomenon. The chemistry is -to some extent- clear, but how that chemistry allows for us to have consciousness, reason, a sense of purpose, curiosity and so on... it's still mostly a mystery.
The responsible energy must be 'universal' in some way, for it to occur so often on one single planet such as ours. And if that's true, then why wouldn't it be perpetual as well? That's what I'm hoping for: to be part of the perpetual universal life-force.

What I said was that my being an agnostic does NOT have to do with my trying to avoid pissing off some deity. Because I agree that I would have pissed off said deity by not taking a stand.

I don't see how an atheist can believe in an afterlife. You just saying that you hope there is one doesn't explain how you think there could be one. jb says he would like to think there is one, but he doesn't, that makes sense for an atheist to say.

When you say that *you* don't have to *worry* about an afterlife, that implies that you think that *I* do. That is where I got that you thought I did.

Like The Mummy I too am unsure if an afterlife exists. Unlike God, there is very little logic to support the lack of its existance. However, I do not expect to be faced with an afterlife. But, there is absolutely no reason for an atheist not to believe in an afterlife. An atheist is someone who dismisses God. God has nothing to do with the afterlife - yes, he's a major part of Heaven but if I did believe in an afterlife it would either be another life down in the good old physical realm, or it would be in another dimension - yet God would still make no appearance. Currently I am convinced there is no afterlife but I am not very firm with my belief as there is not much logic to base it upon. I'm not even sure if I hope for an afterlife. But I think it is wrong to make the assumption that one must have some belief in God to believe in the afterlife as they are not related in any way. The one thing that you must believe in in order to believe in an afterlife is the fact that there is more to us than atoms and whatever that may be, it continues to 'live' without our physical body. Belief in the non-material is in no way dependant on belief in God.

My view of a higher power must be different than yours. When I speak of a higher power, I mean it could be anything from one father type figure to just a mass of energy, but what ever it is it would have created everything. A higher power does not have to be a Christian God, actually I hope it isn't. That is what I'm thinking of. And when I think of an atheist, I think of someone who doesn't believe in a higher power of any kind.