h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I've just been having an argument with my stupid, stroppy brother who seems to think *I* am the stupid and stroppy one. When am I *ever* stupid or stroppy? (Don't answer that.)

Brothers. Don't have 'em.

But I'm gonna drag you lot into the argument anyway, with a quick straw poll.

1. Do you know what a hyphen is?
2. Do you know what a dash is?
3. Do you know what an en dash is?
4. Do you know what an em dash is?
5. What, in your opinion, is the difference (if any, to look at) between a hyphen and a dash and a minus sign?
6. Why the blithering hell can't I do em dashes on h2g2--or can I?

Ssassnfrassnhassn....

1. – this I hope.
2. Thought it was same as above.
3. Used to break up sentences, right? I always just call it a dash.
4. Haven’t a clue.
5. I think en-dashes are longer than hyphens. I hyphen, dash and minus sign are all interchangeable to me.
6.

Quixote: unfortunately, you have just provided Deswald with a stack of ammunition. But never mind that: please tell me how you created that thing you're calling a hyphen!

Won’t the system let you?

Perhaps it’s because I usually type my posts in Word to check for typos and then paste it into the reply box.

I'm not using Word now so lets see if it'll let me
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Have I just misunderstood what you’re asking me?

Question 7: are you a programmer or similar computery geek-type person?

7. That would be a resounding no.

What exactly is it that your brother’s arguing?

"Have I just misunderstood what you're asking me?"

Possibly. This is what I'd call a hyphen: -.

You made a dash that was about three times as long as that (what I'd call an em dash). What keys on your keyboard did you press to create it?

I thought I'd leave time for a few more people to reply before I say what the argument is, exactly, but as I've already let the cat out of the bag a bit I might just tell you in a minute.

On my screen, it’s the same length as every other dash/hyphen on this page. Perhaps it’s the browser I’m using.

I used the key between o and delete.

Deswald says: 99.7% of people don't know the difference between a hyphen, a dash (em or en), and a minus sign. I say that's rubbish; everyone at least knows that hyphens and dashes are different.

Deswald says: there IS NO DIFFERENCE except to fussy petty editing anoraks whom nobody pays any attention to anyway.

Deswald says: h2g2 doesn't let you do long dashes because ASCII only allows for NINETY-SIX CHARACTERS, and there's no point in putting in extra stupid little lines when you can tell from the context what kind of dash they are anyway. I say it's pretty damn important to have both, and I don't get why there isn't a special key on keyboards specifically for em dashes. If it were up to me, I'd put it where the underscore is on most keyboards.

1. A short line closely linking (without a space) two parts of a word which each have a plausible excuse for a separate existence.

2. A remarkably similar line contextually linking two segments of a sentence where the latter segment is an explanation (or similar) for the former.

3. A typography line having the width of an N in a proportional font. –

4. A typography line having the width of an M in a proportional font (typically full square). —

5. In addition to the above spacing differences for hyphen and dash, a minus sign may be unitary and placed right against a number or high up or even over it. Otherwise it looks much like a dash but in an obvious equation setting, ie among numbers and symbols.

6. The site suppresses some characters and computer keyboards don't make them that easily available in the first place. The old BBC MBs may possibly have allowed more characters than the dna area does (I had a list of usable ones I'd prepared quite a while back, so I tried en and em above anyway).

Hello, my dear SEF.

Prediction: SEF's post is something to do with ASCII.

And contains helpful instructions on dash production.

ALT 196 on number pad only works in text entry box but is destroyed by preview (or post?)
─

I know that there are four kinds of mid-level lines. I've seen fonts which allow for all four to be visually distinct, but they're not common. A hyphen is typically one of the other three, but has punctuation rules attached to it. Whether or not you like a shorter or longer dash (en- vs em-) was a personal style thing. A minus sign is almost never used unless the text is equation heavy.

(has friends who did old-fashioned and pre-digital printing)

Right kiddies; this is going to confuse the issue even more. I am typing on a French keyboard; which is totally different to an English one in terms of punctuation since it has to accomodate all manner of weird accents & stuff.

But i am used to it & in fact have great difficulty now using an English one. I tend to over use "&" and exclamation marks 'cos they are very easy to hit quickly. Full stop needs the ciggy hand; "!" doesn't nor does ";" which i also over use. Not to mention brackets.(!)

<<>>

Haven't a sodding clue. Managed to get Grade One English Language & teach English, but no idea whatsoever. But (and you should never start a sentence with "But" or indeed "and") have found thisthat's a colon by the way; that's a semi colon, that's a comma, the first two are also medical terms, the latter is a pretty rare butterfly)

I can spin an English lesson out of this, thank you my friends. Meanwhile; do direct little bro.(abbreviation) to this site:

http://www.getitwriteonline.com/archive/091502.htm

zdt

Hi Snailrind

I know 1 and 2, SEF describes it well.

3 and 4 never heard of, no idea for 5 or 6.

Well I guess context should tell you something as regards 5.

I hate being so thick on this subject, it reminds me of school. In French we learnt this new thing called superlatives, I had never heard of this funny French term before, it was years later that I learnt it was a grammatical term. Without the basis of good English teaching how are you meant to understand all this?

I need to research this now, as I am finally fulfilling my lifes dream of becoming a writer. So any good books or websites you know of please let me know. I am getting Stephens Frys' book on poetry, as I would love to finally learn what iambic parameter means.

Oh and feel free to tell me anything, correct anything, but be gentle with me, I am such a novice, bloody Thatcher and her education policies (children need to learn the language first not the grammer - bull!).

Yup, full marks to SEF (and no surprises there). Of course, Deswald would disagree.... I'll probably get round to adding some comments about usage, when I'm not out of my tree on these rather nice painkillers. It's not just a personal style thing in British English.

'But (and you should never start a sentence with "But" or indeed "and")'

As you so ably demonstrate here, that's just a myth put about by schoolteachers who don't know what they're talking about!

"I need to research this now, as I am finally fulfilling my lifes dream of becoming a writer."

Last summer, I had the opportunity to view a manuscript that had just been accepted by a commissioning editor for Bloomsbury. The writer had a very sketchy idea about how to use grammar, and his punctuation was totally random. It had been accepted on the strength of the story, and even that had to be rewritten. Knowing about English usage isn't as important in getting published as people would have you believe. All publishers have editors to deal with that side of things. (Which means I may, very grudgingly, have to admit that Deswald possibly has a point about the anorak thing.)

"So any good books or websites you know of please let me know."

All the best ones are American, sadly, and written with American English in mind. The standard one used by most Brits is Fowler's Modern English Usage: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0198610211/qid=1135177433/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/026-5434550-5199650. As a reference book, it's a real wade. For someone of reasonable abilities who wants to find out more, I'd recommend the highly entertaining punctuation guide Eats, Shoots and Leaves, by Lynne Truss (an American, but their rules are as near as dammit to British): http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1861976771/qid=1135177902/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/026-5434550-5199650.

I'm rather partial to New Hart's Rules, which goes into a lot of detail about most areas of English usage, is clearly written, and is arranged in such a way that it's easy to find whatever you're looking for: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0198610416/qid=1135178274/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/026-5434550-5199650. Its biggest limitation is that it follows the Oxford University Press in-house style, so will say that certain things aren't permissible when, in fact, they're permissible by most other publishers.

"I am getting Stephens Frys' book on poetry, as I would love to finally learn what iambic parameter means."

I've been drooling over that book too. It's like it was written specifically for me. *sigh*

If you don't get the book, I'd be happy to tell you all about iambic pentameter. I talk about iambic pentameter to anyone who'll listen.

"Oh and feel free to tell me anything, correct anything, but be gentle with me, I am such a novice"

Actually, your talents in this area are good, but normally I prefer not to correct people's writing unless they give me a specific piece to go through. I'm not gentle. I'm thorough, and brutal. If you repeatedly make a really glaring and unusual slip-up, or one which I have some kind of hang-up about, I can point that out, if you like.