h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I have received some useful correction already!

iambic pentameter not iambic parameter

I did have Fowlers, but cannot seem to find it. It was a bit beyond me though. I have seen 'eats, shoots and leaves', I wondered whether it was hype, but if you say its upto the job, then I'll definately check it out.

Oh, and I would love to know in what context you use the n and m hyphen, only being used to bog-standard hyphens myself.

I am relieved to hear you can start a sentence with 'but', as I was told at school you couldn't, so had great joy in starting every sentence to that teacher with 'but'!

"I would love to know in what context you use the n and m hyphen, only being used to bog-standard hyphens myself."

Oh, go on then.

SEF's explanation of dashes sums up the em dash quite well: "A... line contextually linking two segments of a sentence where the latter segment is an explanation (or similar) for the former."

I'd add that they can also be used as parentheses (like brackets), and, contrary to popular belief, there should be no spaces between an em dash and the words on either side of it.

An en dash is used for ranges, as in dates: 1963 - 2004, for instance.

There is only one sort of hyphen, which is used as SEF said: "A short line closely linking (without a space) two parts of a word which each have a plausible excuse for a separate existence."

It's customary to hyphenate certain words all the time (e.g. mother-in-law). If a couple of words work together as an adjective introducing a noun (e.g. 'bog-standard hyphen') then you use a hyphen; but otherwise, you don't (e.g. 'these hyphens are bog standard')--UNLESS, of course, you need one for clarification. Deswald came up with a good example: 'black cab driver' could mean 'black-cab driver' or 'black cab-driver'.

If none of that makes sense, blame the codeine. But I enjoyed writing it.

"I did have Fowlers, but cannot seem to find it. It was a bit beyond me though."

Or a bit crap, as I would put it! Good advice, but unreadable. Eats, Shoots and Leaves had me laughing like a drain.

"I am relieved to hear you can start a sentence with 'but', as I was told at school you couldn't, so had great joy in starting every sentence to that teacher with 'but'!"

And you have gracefully ended that sentence with a perfectly valid 'but', thus breaking another so-called 'rule'.

I'm not bothered - but interested nevertheless...

Normally I wouldn't get all about these things but Deswald knows exactly how to yank my chain.

But does Deswald know butt-all about how to chain your butt?

<<>>

Tsk tsk; shouldn't that be "It's as if it had been written specifically for me"?

Squeaking as a bloody schoolteacher; who actually knows sod all about grammar; anybody who gives me that book as a Christmas is likely to find it inserted into nether regions they nether dreamed they had.

Anyway, today's English lesson is going to be on the subject of Bowel Cancer. And(!hah!) I am not joking, my student is a nutritionist working for the French Government. I shall endevour to introduce the phrase "nether regions" into the conversation, but no idea of etymological origings of "nether"; one starts drifting into thoughts of Dutch dykes; quick, fetch Pheloxi!

zdt

'Nether' does just mean 'lower'.. Think of 'the Low Countries', a.k.a The Netherlands.

From the Old English word 'nither', meaning 'down'.

So when would you use an em-hyphen?

There's no such thing.

Sorry an em dash.

Blimey could you be any stricter? You may want to consider that some of us had no grammatical teaching at school whatsoever and that wanting to learn now is a good thing. Of course its upto me to go out and learn it by myself, without pestering you, sorry about that. Don't feel you have to answer the question.

Sorry. That was purely a tone of voice thing; I didn't mean to sound strict, just informative. I had already described the usage of the em dash in post 22, which is why I didn't elaborate: I thought you were asking about something different.

Reading back over it, I see that my explanation's pretty vague. I have to go out shortly, but I'll think of some examples of how to use it, and get back to you. (N.B. I have a feeling you already have a natural feel for how to use an em dash, so you may learn nothing new.)

Is the em dash the normal one?

I got the impression there was the normal one, the en and em, making 3 types. You can tell its all new to me!

Sorry about my previous post, it coincided with a traumatic phone call. Thank for being patient with my lack of knowledge, it must be interesting seeing the differences in knowledge.

Language stuff is weird, i am "apparently" pretty good at it but i have absolutely no knowledge of grammar rules; other than those i learned very painfully when i did the TEFL (teaching English as a Foreign Language)course.

Here in France, the children learn grammar structure right from the word go; my students shame me by saying "ah, so that's an example of the simple continuous tense then is it?" or suchlike & i gulp and try and give them practical examples.

Anyway, it's nearly Christmas & we should be "dashing" through the on a one horse open sleigh. Or: Dashing threw the snow on a wan hoarse open slay. English isn't easy is it?

zdt

Hi, Kaz and Terri.

Regarding tone of voice: Gothly says my sore mouth has been making me crabby all day, and it's just as well my comment was written down and not spoken out loud.

Sorry to hear you had an upsetting phone call: not what one needs, especially at this time of year!

Yes, the em dash is the normal one, which most people just call a dash. I separated them out in my first post, because I thought most people would have heard of dashes, even if they didn't know there were two types.

The person I was visiting today owns a copy of Eats, Shoots & Leaves, so I've borrowed it for the section on dashes. I'll quote it in my next post.

From 'Eats, Shoots and Leaves', by Lynne Truss.


The dash nowadays is seen as the enemy of grammar, partly because overtly disorganised thought is the mode of most email and text communication, and the dash does an annoyingly good job in these contexts standing in for all other punctuation marks. "I saw Jim—he looked gr8—have you seen him—what time is the thing 2morrow—C U there."

...The distinction between the big bold dash and its little brother the hyphen is evidently blurring these days, and requires explanation. Whereas a dash is generally concerned to connect (or separate) phrases and sentences, the tiny tricksy hyphen... is used quite distinctly to connect (or separate) individual words.

Are dashes intrinsically unserious? Certainly in abundance they suggest baroque and hyperactive silliness.... Yet the dash need not be silly.... A single dash creates a dramatic disjunction which can be exploited for humour, for bathos, for shock. "Wait for it," the single dash seems to whisper, with a twinkle if you're lucky. Byron is a great master of the dramatic dash:

A little still she strove, and much repented,
And whispering "I will ne'er consent"—
consented.

A comma just wouldn't cut the mustard there, especially with the metre hurrying you along....

Double dashes are another matter. These are a bracketing device, and the only issue is when to use brackets, when dashes. The differences can be quite subtle, but compare these two:

He was (I still can't believe this!) trying to climb in the window.
He was—I still can't believe this!—trying to climb in the window.

Is one version preferable to the other? Reading both aloud, it would be hard to tell them apart. But as they sit on the page, it seems to me that the brackets half-remove the intruding aside, half-suppress it; while the dashes warmly welcome it in, with open arms.

I use brackets far too much.....but i also use rows of dots and semi colons far too much; what are these called? (the dots!)

Once you put something in brackets it sort of implies it's a personal thought, it seems to me; a semi-colon is like a larger pause than a comma, which is merely a little normal breath; a semi-colon is a more dramatic pause to let the idea sink into the audience.

zdt*done too much pantomime; where do the asterix's fit in? Do not ask this question in the Comics capital of France!

zdt

Interesting that you should mention panto: I read somewhere that punctuation was first invented (by the Greeks) to let actors know how to say their pieces.

A row of three dots (to indicate a long pause, a missing section, or a trail-off) is called an ellipsis... I have a bad habit of following ones at the ends of sentences with a full stop.

Oops, gotta go: Gothly's summoning me.

I’m still confused! I think grammar is just something that happens to other people.

I seem to be using that smiley a lot on this thread.

...me too!!!

Next question: how many exclamation marks are too many? Or even question marks????

zdt

In a formal context, no more than one of either, and most books insist you should NEVER use more than one; but sometimes using more than one can be useful, if they alter the meaning in some way. For example, the following question might be a polite query...

"Why are you putting on your pants over your trousers?"

...Whereas, this version might denote bewilderment and add an emotional element to the question:

"Why are you putting on your pants over your trousers??"

I say break the rules if it means you can convey something better that way.

My personal view on exclamation marks is the same as my view on adjectives: used sparingly, they can add piquancy to a piece; overdo them and it's like overdoing the seasoning in a casserole!!!!! (Then again, curry can be very tasty!!!)



Regarding (em) dashes: would it be less confusing if I said that, as a rule of thumb, dashes are used in casual contexts such as letters to friends or fictional dialogue? The (em) dash is the bohemian of the punctuation world.



You guys probably have no idea how much I'm enjoying this conversation! Funnily enough, I don't get to discuss punctuation very much.