h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

2 of the women here at work were having the ing immigrants conversation
I took the cowards way out and kept my head down
Sometimes I think the reason we get such godawful cowardly scumbag politicians is because they are all will deserve

ing about immigrants? It's hard to know what to say to people like that. What can you say that will really make any difference? Except to let them you know that you've heard and you don't like it. The worst is when it's borderline offensive, imo.

there seem to be a lot of them around
I'm pretty ashamed of keeping quiet but I didn't want to have another arguement about it
I have had the same arguement before with 1 of the women a couple of times

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I know how that feels. Wearying. Sometimes it's just necessary to say 'bother it' and move on, because no matter what you say, there's no telling some people...

I've been getting a reputation for wading in aggressively.

The very idea that Britain has an 'immigration crisis' is an out and out LIE. We have a racism problem. The victims of this are the many immigrants - legal and illegal - who are working for low wages and in appalling conditions in our hospitals, care homes and potato fields.

Then there are all sorts of outrageous myths about immigrants sponging off benefits. I have to constantly remind people that legitimate refugees are not allowed to work but are given minimal benefits which place them below subsistence level. Then people bring up 'What about all these illegal ones, then? They're not even paying taxes!!!' Well, no. But on their wages they wouldn't be anyway. They *are*, however, contributing to the economy, in two ways. First, they make profits for their employers. Second - where do you think they're spending their money? Yes, the fact that they're being exploited at below minimum wage, and that this holds down wages generally, is immoral. The answer to this is Trade Unions, not expulsion.

And don't get me started on the points system. So we're only going to let in the useful, skilled people from now on, are we? Like teachers and nurses who speak resonable English. So where are we going to get them from? Well...a lot of these English-speaking nurses are currently coming from South Africa, a country with an AIDS crisis and a deparate shortage of medical staff. What we basically want is for the Third World to subsidise our underfunded education system.

It is utterly dispicable that both Tories and Labour are cravenly campaigning within the political territory of the British Nazi Party, and I can scarecely believe that I find myself on the same side of the Labour Party as Roy Hattersly. If I still had a party card, I'd burn it!

There. That's got that off my chest.

We hear a lot of that sh1te here in NZ as well, Edward. The 'New Zealand First Party' even put an anti-immigrant pamphlet through letter boxes some time ago.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/brunel/MJ200875?Journal=96554&show=5&skip=5
"To all New Zealand regulars, here. Have you received the latest piece of offensive hate-mail in your letter box from Tauranga MP Winston Peters? Winnie has really outdone himself this time. It’s so bad that some postal workers face disciplinary action for refusing to deliver it. (Seriously.) I recently told someone that there’s no real racism in New Zealand and I really believed that. But now NZ has lost its innocence.

It says (among other things):

“The face of NZ is being changed through deliberate ethnic, social and cultural engineering. NZ is now a soft touch for illegal immigrants, bogus refugees and asylum seekers whose bills are paid by the taxpayer. Imported crime levels are soaring and so are the number of third world diseases such as Tuberculosis and HIV/AIDS.”"

The Labour Party would probably argue that they're reacting to public concerns. In opinion polls, immigration regularly emerges as the most important issue amongst voters. (Why?!!!).

Of course - they're just feeding and legitimising the concerns. Nobody has the courage to stand up and say 'You're wrong! Look at the evidence!'.

Anyone fancy joining me in a public burning of copies of the Daily Mail?

The abovementioned Winnie Peters had an election billboard last time that showed him holding up three fingers, which were meant to symbolise his concerns: immigration, Laura Norder and the Treaty of Waitangi.

Earlier, he'd said he wasn't anti-Asian, because he'd discovered that Maori came from somewhere in China 13,000 years ago (he's part-Maori, and most of our immigrants at the time came from China and he had been campaigning against them but he must be Chinese way way back...) So a Chinese comedian joked that the billboard meant that Winnie had lost his other two fingers in a kung fu accident.

Seems its always the same rubbish being put out
They come over here and don't want to work and we pay for everything for them and they're taking our jobs
Forget the fact that half of the above contradicts the other half and that most people in the UK or NZ wouldn't be prepared to work for the type of wage that illegal immigrants usually get

<< most people in the UK or NZ wouldn't be prepared to work for the type of wage that illegal immigrants usually get>>

Exactly...

I think Britain is almost as dependent as the US on cheap foriegn labour nowadays

Sorry to just barge in but... a pet topic of mine.

I am a union rep at work and as a result I feel it is my responsibility to never let racism lie.

When people talk about the "Immigration Crisis" Copyright Daily Hate tm. I feel obliged to challenge them on it always. This however causes me some social problems at work.

new thoughts are always welcome
you're right of course, it should never be allowed to just go by unanswered, just I've had the same arguement with one of the people involved before
with her it doubtless is a wasted cause but the other person might not be and even the bigot should be reminded that some people find her opinions offensive

Turned out the guy I've been seeing since I moved here to Southern Cal is a total "I'm not racist, but" kinda guy. I'd sort of known this about him but I was in denial. Last week he went on this jag about vietnamese and mexican immigrants. There was no arguing with him about it cause he knew all about immergrants already, and what they were doing to certain neighborhoods and yadda, yadda...We're no longer seeing each other, (hope this isnt' tmi) but any ideas on how you counter this?

I read that and was trying to think what to say
He probably doesn't believe he is being racist
I'm not sure how you deal with it

You didn't just ignore it even though that might have made your life easier which must count for something

In my experience, a pure 'You are racist' harangue can be counterproductive in two ways. Firstly, it raises hackles and entrenches attitudes. Secondly, the casual racist simply learns to tone the language down while retaining the language. Indeed, as stated above, such people may genuinely believe that they are not racist. This is the situation in Britain at the moment. Ignorant, uninformed anxiety about immigration is no longer believed to be racist.

What I prefer to do is to calmly but insistently state the other side - the benefits of multiculturalism, our dependency on immigrant labour and skills, the myth of race...etc. etc. You really have to be on top of the game, though. It's incredible the amount of downright lies that have entered the popular imagination via the media.
'What about these immigrant pickpocketing gangs?' Are you saying there are no white pickpockets?
'What about all these benefits that assylum seekers are getting?' You realise they're not allowed to work, don't you? But do you know how much they get monthly?
'What about all these illegal 'economic migrants', though. They're not even paying taxes.' Sure. But they're not getting benefits either. And on the sub-legal wages they're getting, they wouldn't be paying income tax anyway. However, they're contributing to the economy. Their employers, one hopes, are paying taxes on the profits that the immigrants make for them. Plus - where do you think they're spending their money?
etc. etc. etc.

All you need is a brain to outwit the racists and xenophobes, chances are if they posses one they are not actually using it.

Just ask them questons like the ones people have been posting above

They will either begin to think about what they are saying or drop the subject because the prospect of having to think is just too much for them.

If they continue on down their blind alley simply point out to them that if they are not going to think then they will get taken in by any old story that they read in the paper or hear down the pub and leave them to their mindless rubbish.

one love

Hmm. The other useful ideas is 'give them the benefit of the doubt'. Maybe this is over-tolerant of me...but my starting position is that the casual racist is not necessarily stupid or bad - merely misinformed. We are all victims of our circumstances. People who do not have contact with other cultures and who are not widely read are at the mercy of the prevailing political tide. But there is hope for them. It is our duty to educate. We're doing them a big favour...they'll be happier people for it.

There was a good line from Northern Exposure a few years ago, when the astronaut guy was having difficulty coming to terms with the fact that he had a vietnamese family: 'If it's any comfort to you, racism is a learned attitude. It can be unlearned.'

True enough Edddy no one is stupid or bad, the actions of racists are irrefutibly stupid and bad.

I like what you say about it being a learned attitude.

Here are a few questions that you guys can use without being too confrontational.

-When you say were being swamped by immigrants how many immigrants are actually needed for the country to be swamped?

-How many crimes do you hear about that are not carried out by illegal immigrants or assylum seekers?

-If you are dead set against immigration I trust you turn down all medical care from non white doctors, nurses, dentists and chemists.



My favourite is not a question though:

-You can say what you like about Labours immigration policy...[pause] but if you were unlucky enough to come from some of the countries some of these people come from where if you do say the kind of things you're saying about government policies then anyone from your 12 year old daughter to your grandparents might be raped by the police or security forces and you could well be thrown in jail and totured. So you can say what you like about your governments policies but just spare a thought for those who cant.

one love

And if that doesn't work...kick 'em in the nuts.