h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

**Warning vent coming**

Some days I really feel like I need a break from these pathetic pacifists. I guess we should let anyone who wants to maul our nation. Don't worry, we won't do anything about it.

Then we have the liberals who want to control our lives. They want to take money from people who earn it, and give it away to pathetic wretches who've made decisions that led to them winding up on the bottom rung of society.

While we're at it, we'll limit free speech with political correctness. Then we'll outlaw firearms. Let's leave our citizens unprotected from criminals and tyrants.

Of course, we have the bash America crowd, who wouldn't have a kind word for us if we were giving away chocolate covered gold. Of course, no one cares if you insult Americans and use derogatory language about them; that's acceptable to the moderators.

Isn't there a little place somewhere, it doesn't have to be a big one, where people appreciate liberty and honor, but they're not afraid to show a little backbone?

Screw it.

**Fair warning: this is a vent responding to this will probably get you flamed. **

"Isn't there a little place somewhere, it doesn't have to be a big one, where people appreciate liberty and honor, but they're not afraid to show a little backbone?"

I know of a couple of places but they are in RL and usualy somewhere near a base man. Don't worry man you are not alone.

I saw the warning by the way. Feel free to flame.

I was feeling a litte frustrated that day. I've just now started returning to 9/11 forums.

I've calmed down a bit.

Two Bit, I feel your pain, man. Part of the reason I haven't been on here in a while is because of some of the things posted around September 11. Tac is right in saying that the places you wish for do exist, they are usually near a military base, this I know from experience. But, unfortunately, these people, the pacifists, are exercising their rights to express their views. I just think its sad that they fail to realize that wars fought in the past and the present is what enables them to have that right. Not that I am a war loving individual, far from it, but I do recognize the need to defend what one has. I do find it kind of funny how some individuals oppose defending our nation and our freedom, but if you criticize their pacifistic views, then they get defensive.

(Clink, clink) and now you have my two cents

I think I have come to terms with many things lately
1. I can deal with someone who says all war is wrong and that they don't want to fight.
2. Some of these people are willing to help out in humanitation aids and I can defintly get behind them on that. They are at least willing to work to make the world a better place.

The people that I have run into that I will not ever understand or give compation to are the ones who say yes we should fight as long as its not me doing the fighting. The ones who hold their dreams and asperations higher then there fellow man. It kind of reminds me of 'war pigs' by black sabath 'why should they go out to the fight they leave arowws to the poor' Its sad to say I have seen many interveiws in the new york area where i have heard people say things like this. This is one of the times I really miss where I grew up.

I agree with you. I have accepted that there are people who flat out think that war is wrong, no matter what the cause or purpose. It is their right to feel that way. And working for humanitarian efforts is a very good thing. At least that is a contribution. I understand your frustration with those who put their own dreams/aspiration/wants/needs above that of others. This is a phenomenon that isn't exclusive to war time. Those people are a part of everyday life all the time. They are the ones who want everything handed to them without working for it. That includes the defense of their freedom. I have also accepted that as something I can not change.

What I do not understand is how someone who holds strong anti-war sentiment can hold such hostility toward someone, especially someone close to them, who may hold a different view. That is a very sad result of situations like the present one. People on opposite sides of the fence, for example a soldier and a pacifist, each feel so strongly about their view that a friendship can be ruined. Is it not possible to have opposing views without losing respect for each other?

I was in my hometown this weekend, a military town. While the tension is palpable, the sense of unity is as well. I know for certain that there are people in that town that oppose the US actions overseas, but the respect they have for it is on another level. For it is not an unknown soldier that is fighting over there, it is a friend and neighbor, and to find someone that will show anything short of respect for that would be a challenge in and of itself.

It was good to be home

Someday I will get a chance to go back my self.

Someday, heh? Well, it better be sooner than later.

It is a surreal experience. Surrounded by military convoys. The sound of live fire from the ongoing training rattling the dishes in the cabinet. MPs standing on the medians watching traffic go by.

Enough to make one feel safe and scared at the same time.

But it is home.

I think I am probably one of those liberals you all dislike so much but I wanted to come and say hello anyway. I came to TBTPM's space because I could see we fundamentally disagreed on the subject of the homeless and from other postings I think we probably disagree on one or two other things as well. I wanted to say hi.

I haven't come to put down your views, you have a right to them, you have signed up to a principle and then offered your life to defend it. I respect that greatly as it is something I don't think I could do. Earlier in this thread it was said that the worst people were those that agreed with war but wouldn't fight themselves, well, feel free to flame because I am one of them.

As a general principle I oppose war and think most things can be sorted out through diplomatic channels. As a pragmatist I can see that sometimes that will fail and more drastic action needs to be taken. My problem is that I could not kill somebody. I have heard all the arguements about 'what would you do if faced with Hitler and you could have stopped everything by killing him'. That is hard. I still don't think I could do it. Maybe, but I don't know. In immediate self defence, yes, in immediate defence of somebody else, yes. But I don't think I could do what you guys do and widen that to another place in defence of something abstract. I am grateful to you for doing what I cannot, but please don't despise me for it.

Anyway, having come to say hello I have ended up saying a fair bit more. What a wonderful place h2g2 is that I can meet people so different to myself, the world would be a smaller darker place if it wasn't for all this variety.

Kelli

My major problem is with people who don't support the nation when we decide to go to war. Before we decide, it's fine to argue, but once troops are committed, we need to come together and support the effort. Showing a lack of commitment to the war lengthens it and boosts the morale of the enemy.

In this case, peace is on the far side of war. We can't have it until the issue is resolved and our enemies brought to heal.

I can tolerate queasy people in the rear, as long as they show some support of the war effort.

I do question some people's intestinal fortitude. President Clinton clearly wimped out. Instead of not registering for the draft, he tried to side step it by defrauding the government and getting an ROTC deferment. I don't believe in the draft, but I don't tolerate cowards.

This is time for real men (and women too) to stand up and be ready to answer the call.

Two Bit Trigger Pumping Moron
Those who refuse to support and defend the state have no right to claim the protection of that state. - Robert Heinlein

Kelli, I don't hate you for feeling the way you feel. In fact, I understand the stance you take. I am not sure if I could kill anyone, and hope that I never have to face the day when I have to make that choice. I am not in the military, I just have extremely close ties to it being from a military town and having very close friends serving our country. I have heard soldiers question whether or not they could actually kill someone, but when called upon the do what they have to. I do get a little frustrated when people say they won't serve our country if called upon, because I have people close to me who do it voluntarily, so it seems like its OK for my friends to pay the price for freedom but it is beneath other people. I tend to take it personally. I guess I am a little biased. I hope that is understandable.
I agree with Two Bit in that I have a problem with people who don't support the nation once the war has begun. It is possible to not necessarily agree with the actions being taken, yet still be supportive of our country. I have heard people refer to our soldiers as babykillers and blood thirsty as if they asked for this war, when I know for a fact that they were the ones who were praying for peace the hardest, knowing that if peace didn't prevail they would be the ones called upon. I guess it is a lack of understanding there that I struggle with.
But no, I can't hate anyone for feeling the way they feel. After all, it's my right and their right.

Do you both think it is wrong to question the tactics taken, or should we just accept whatever it is that the military leaders do? For example, I think in Afghanistan the bombing has gone on for long enough - there wasn't much there to hit in the first place and the Taliban are smart enough to move their operations into desnely populated areas where the liklihood of civilian casualties is high. The Afghan people are not all in support if their leaders so I don't think they are fair targets (that is why we have so many of them trying to get into Britain as refugees to escape this regime).

I think a different approach needs to be taken now. I don't want to see our troops coming home in body bags but I equally don't want to have thousands of dead innocent Afghans on our collective conscience. That is stooping to the same level as the terrorists.

I think the way you are looking at the bombing is the number of days and not the amount. Yes it has been 19 days I do beilve but the intencty of the bombing has not been heavy at all. Right now they are targeting bacicly pop up targets and not all that many. If we were to bomb them full blast for 19 days then we would level most of the country. The reason it is taking so long and we are bombing so lite is the reasons that you stated. We are being as carful as posible and with explosives that can be a dificult job. They key here is that the military is trying to do the right thing. I think the bombing will greatly subside by mid NOV because of the holy month. More than likely in the next few weeks we will see an increase in ground raids. And by the way to serve your country does not mean that you have to kill someone.

()

Hi Tacsatduck, I realise I don't have to kill anyone to support my country but there seemed to be a general annoyance directed towards those who wouldn't fight themselves, so I explained why I couldn't do that. If I was needed I would happily work in military hospitals or any of the back-up activities.

Besides, I fight like a girl .

My point about the bombing having gone on long enough wasn't really a temporal one - number of days is neither here nor there - but rather that there isn't much left to hit and what there is will have been moved closer to civilians. I think there can be very little value left in bombing so another tactic should be employed.

Questioning tactics is probably okay. The only school on strategy that I've been to is basic training at the United States Army Infantry Center and School. I don't know how much training you have in strategy.

We've paid a lot of money to train and educate our generals. They have decades of experience. I'm willing to let the professionals decide what the best strategy is.

We're a free naiton,a nd we keep the professionals honest by looking over their shoulders, but I'm willing to give them a little credit.

Questioning the decisions of the powers that be make is only natural. There is no perfect way to do anything. It is when blame gets passed on to those who don't deserve it that bothers me. Any loss of life is too much, I just hope that the people who are making the decisions as far as military tactics know what they are doing. They know things that the general public doesn't. In that, I hope that they examine all the possibilities and do what is in the best interest for ALL involved.

TBTPM, I am not here to try and score points off of you and my approach has always been questioning. I am sorry if this has come across as offensive to you, it is just that I don't believe that to question the decisions and actions of a government - including my own - is to attack or undermine that government in any way.

I find your tone here fairly aggressive, and this is probably really a difference in communicative styles (and probably our different cultures - we Brits don't often go for the declaritive sentence) so I am trying not to take it too personally.

My original purpose in coming here was to say hi and to acknowledge that though we don't seem to agree on very much I still very much value your opinion - these differences make h2g2 a richer experience for all concerned. I have said this now so I think I will say goodbye from here.

Take care,
kelli

This forum wasn't meant as a debate, it was meant as a vent. I labeled it as such.

I never said that it isn't proper to question government. I said that that we keep government honest by watching them. However, they're professionals in their arena of expertese. I think they deserve a little credit when it comes to deciding how to prosecute a war.

I realise that TBTPM, that is why I am saying goodbye here.