h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Right, here goes:

If you in your body etc. were found to be incapable of carrying a child to term for your health or the child's, what would your personal Plan B consist of?

Obvious choices are:
to put up with it
- pets
- other activities

adoption
- from your own country
- from overseas

fostering

surrogacy
- direct
- host
- stranger
- familial

In this instance I'm not talking about difficulty conceiving, where IVF would be of help, but of physical reasons why you might be unable to safely carry a healthy child to term.

Obviously, this is all meant in the hypothetical but I figure there are some very clever people on here and surely some of you will have great ideas about this sort of thing, same as every other thing.

It's a very personal question, and I'm sure each woman has differing feelings about this.

For me, personally, it's close to Plan B. Easy for me to say, because I don't have any desire for children, so I wouldn't so much be putting up with the situation, as I don't feel lack of children leaves anything missing from my life.

Hypothetically, though, I guess if I truly wanted a child and for health reasons couldn't or shouldn't carry one, fostering or adoption would be the best choice. I don't think I'd personally be comfortable with a surrogate, for reason(s) I can't quite put into words. I can appreciate that a surrogate child would at least carry some of my partner's DNA, but if I had to risk the birth mother having a change of heart at the last minute I think it would be more devastating for me- and I can't figure out just why.

Hopefully one of those clever people you speak of will be along with input eventually. I'm sure I'm the wrong person to answer this question.

I'm sure you're not the wrong clever person to answer this!

I knew from other posts that you weren't planning on having children, for various reasons, and I do admire you for making such a big decision and having the balls to both make it, state it and defend it as I'm sure you must have to do, to all the nitwits who feel it is in any way, shape or form a matter for them to comment on.

It's a bit like your diet - I admire you for it and can appreciate just how admirable it is, but it's not necessarily suitable for me. That doesn't mean I don't value your input and experiences (in fact you're usually the person I ask about cooking something!) as you approach things from a different angle to me and that is always valuable.

However, as this is kind of a delicate subject, I wouldn't expect anyone to comment that didn't feel comfortable doing so.

Yes, it's a delicate subject. I'm often told that the decision not to have children is a very selfish one. It's frustrating when people make assumptions about each other, especially in regards to personal choices for which one needs no justification and owes no explanation. I've also heard people who desperately want children called selfish, especially "older" women who have tried unsuccessfully for a long time, and women who use IVF. Humans have all sorts of reasons for doing things, some of them selfish and some not. And what's wrong with factoring selfish reasons into decisions? Isn't a big part of life all about self-preservation and a little self-fulfillment?

What I do personally believe is that it would be just as difficult to fill my life with Other Stuff if I really and truly wanted a child or children in my life, as it would be to be forced or pressured into having children that one isn't prepared for. I have a pet, and hobbies, and other activities that I enjoy, but I don't feel that I am using these things to channel energy away from a desire to carry and nuture a child. Many women who are unable to have children certainly successfully find fulfillment in other things. But I don't necessarily think that's automatically the "best" option for everyone. If something is missing from someone's life, then I think that person should do anything s/he is able to try to achieve it.

Fostering or adoption seem like good options to me because then not only do parents who truly want children, have the opportunity to do so, but children who are parentless have the opportunity to be loved. But that's probably a whole 'nother issue.

I occasionally read/post on a child-free-by-choice board (even though I'm clearly not!) and they often bemoan the fact that people label them selfish. I can't understand why anyone would say that tbh, deciding *not* to follow a societal norm is usually a harder path than going along with what is expected and will have taken much more thought and consideration.

Anyhow, as for the opening question - you do know this is impossible to answer don't you? If you'd asked me five years ago you'd have got a different answer to the one you'll get now, and proabably different again from the one I'd give in five years time. I think, with the benefit of hindsight in having my own children, my plan B would be to put up with it and just do soemthing different with my life.

I couldn't ask another woman to take the risks of pregnancy on my behalf and I don't think I would be able to adopt a child that wasn't mine (this would have been my solution five years ago) because we've had such a hard time with my son that I don't know if I'd have managed to bond with an equally difficult child without the benefit of hormones and other biological tricks that mother nature usually supplies to ensure that the constant screaming doesn't drive you mad. Mind you, I wouldn't have had post-natal depression or physical impairment after the terrible birth either, so maybe it would be more similar to a 'normal' experience. OTOH, adoption of little babies is rare - they are usually older and come with baggage - I don't know how I'd have dealt with that.

I think this is one of those situations where there is no right answer, and one would have to question *why* one wants children and *how* one would feel about all the downsides to all of the various options as well as the good sides.

It is hard for me to comment though, what with having been fortunate enough to be blessed with ridiculous fertility - we've fallen pregnant first time of trying both times so I don't even have the experience of a month or two of disappointment to test my feelings about what to do if we couldn't have children.

I think in many ways having children or not, when you do it or not is very much a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

If you have children when your body is best equipped for it, society considers you too young and worries about the message we're sending and so on. I'm not saying that young unwed/single mothers is a good thing, necessarily.

On the other hand, if you get an education, then work in your career and then have children when you feel ready to do so, you get castigated for being an irresponsible older mother, being a drain on the NHS and so on.

If you choose to have children in general, you get referred to as a breeder. If you have more than one child you get referred to as stupid in a 'haven't you head of birth control' kind of way, irresponsible and selfish.

If you choose to have one child then you get called stupid for raising a mommy's boy, self-absorbed, never learned to share kind of kid.

If you choose to have no children you get called selfish and told that you're not contributing to the continuation of your family in particular and society in general.

I don't know what my decision would be, either.

The reason I'm asking you guys is that I've read up on fostering, adoption and surrogacy and there doesn't appear to be a 'good' option in any of these.

Children given up for adoption often come with baggage, biological parents are sometimes given rights over their children over those of the adoptive parents.

Children in foster care often come with baggage, and are not intended to be with you on a permanent basis.

Surrogacy means asking another woman to take the medical risks instead of you, which is a big ask, and there have been instances where the surrogate mother and the intended mother have both changed their minds, i.e. surrogates have refused to hand the baby over or the intended mother has refused to receive it.

I tend to want things to be perfect, with nothing having ever gone wrong, so I'm not sure I'd have the most informed ideas about something as complex as this. I figured there would be people on hootoo that would be social workers, doctors, adoptive parents or parents who have given their child up for adoption, fostered children and foster parents.

I was going to post this on Ask, but chickened out.

I chicken out a lot when it comes to posting questions on Ask, too. I only know of one person on here with whom I am friendly who IIRC has experience with fostering/ adoption (as a child, not as a parent). I'll ask that person to stop by if possible with some input.

I usually dive in with both boots on Usually get good answers, although you do get the occasional idiot (such as when Blicky started posting on my thread about making a c-section a positive experience) who you just have to ignore.

Don't think I know anyone with direct experience, at least not who I could ask on here.

Thanks you gals!

I'd appreciate direct input from someone who's been there, but I'm still trying to figure out the rational behind making these decisions. How you do come to the decision that fostering is for you? Or that you'd adopt?

I get a bit turned around on this sort of stuff when I hear negative stories, especially as they can be so catastrophically awful under the circumstances, that I kind of end up going nowhere, feeling no better informed than I was when I started.

Bleh. It's all academic anyway.

I think the most intimidating part of posting a Serious Question on Ask- for me, anyway- is that while you might get some good answers, those occasional idiots who don't answer the actual question but instead choose to turn the conversation into a criticism of your choices or what they perceive to be your motivation(s) in asking the question in the first place sometimes make really crass or hurtful comments. Sometimes it's even people with whom you've previously been friendly.

That said, I do think this is a good question for Ask. I do know a couple who adopted both of their children, but have not heard from them in ages and wouldn't know how to get in touch to ask, leastwise know how they got through it or how their children are doing now.

No, I appreciate that this isn't something you can look up old acquaintances for, just to ask. It's way too personal.

Another thing I thought of regarding your situation - this is not your plan B. This is your plan. Plan B is for when the original plan doesn't work out and you have to reassess the situation.

Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense to me- sticking to the Plan requires frequent reassessment of the situation, too.

It does?

Fair enough.

Hello ismarah

I have read your posts with interest, probably around PCs space.
I have not officially said hello before. I am here less often, though I wish it were more! PC asked if I might take a look at your questions.

OH my I can add info from many directions.
I could never answer for you or urge making a choice even if you were my patient,client,best buddy. I do like the thought time put into seflishness. I hope to make selfishness the smaller consideration when other people are involved.

My mother whom raised me Was nearing 30 and(L)was told repeatedly that she was selfish for not having children. Her sisters were the loudest and most frequent informers. They all had kids. That was in the early 50's when many of us baby boomers were born. It was even more the "norm" so to speak.
Um *gag me*

Selfishness has gotten a totally bad reputation IMO.
There ARE times when people need a little selfishness to operate at their best. I suppose I should tell you black and white thinking- all or nothing is my greatest pet peeve I prefer cold hard honesty and reality and I accept it is not always pretty , hurts alot at times BUT is the only way to cut through confusion and muddied water to get to the other side.

Integrity (striving for = nobody perfect)open minded thinking , an open heart (including for yourself)will get you all you really need.

Looking at all options is excellant whether you know the question OR the possible desired answer.

As mentioned by others time has a way of changing outlooks,opportunities and ability to give and recieve certain gifts.

I am one to consider the worst up front, the best, and a plan B also. That is how I start a decision.
What is the worst and best I can imagine? What would I be willing to *accept as a good outcome is possibly the most important.

I tend to loose my posts so I wll stop and start.
I also have limited endurance. A good topic will often motivate me past my normal limits! Hang in there if you want more!

OK Background on me.

I was born number 7 out of 11 children( or close enough-might be more)I was alone at 3 and half with my younger sister by 1 and half years and 2 newborn twins. I was essentially the Mom. Insane situation.

The older children were taken to the childrens home for a yearly holiday and left without warning or explaination. It was the Soldiers and Sailors Home for their orphans. I was not admitted because I had active TB.

Little did the authorities know there were 4 more children in (E)our Birth Moms home.Our father came home from the war with 3 children he could have not fathered. He was injured and suffered from ptsd(shell shock then)he was ;itterly in the gutter.

I was adopted at age 5 ,the same time my younger siblings and two older sibling were adopted. 2-2-1 Three families. I was an only child until my mother whom had one ovary and was told she could not have kids ,had one within a year I was soooo happy to have a sibling again.



My adoption was successful and my two sisters in one home setting was 50/50 successful.

The twins were extremely unsuccessful.
One was murdered by parents , the other sent to another home and adopted by the foster care couple whom was the prosecutor or defender in the case.( we think - not found him yet)

The older siblings in the home were never relquished by our birth parents so were never adopted. 3 of the 4 did exceptionally well in the home. Being 12 and older and never feeling givemn up totally was probably for the best in their minds. 2 would have been if the rights had been given up. 2 would have refused being adopted.


We have all been reunitedexcept for the surviving twin.
I also met a half brother whom (E) had given up shortly after birth to her previous divorce lawyer.

That was a successful adoption.


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Recently - my sister-in-law took on four foster children.
At first she applied for a girl under age 10 but would consider others. She wa quite uncommitted beyond trying to be of help to children and hoping but not counting on the little girl she never had. She is a single MOM with one teen boy of her own. She was divotced when he was young and he had yearly summer visits with his dad. She was very good at balancing all of that with grace.

I can fill in some blanks but to make a long story short - I was very pleased to travel to the courtroom where all were adopted this spring. I rarely use the word travel. Not in my dance of life much these days.

For this adoption-
AT first one parent still had rights. The mother had no rights and was incarerated. Dad was in many programs he fsiled so the kids had their hope up for returning UNTL the day he relinquished his rights.

There was some uproar among the kids, some acting out but eventually she asked them all - each had an individual choice to be adopted by her. The oldest decided on emancipation and recieved it. The others wanted to be adopted. They kept the names they were born with and added their new last name. This was also their choice. In schools these days ( US) most kids have 2 last names. They are not hypenated as often. It is first middle- First last-last last.


It is never too late to adopt a child IF they want to be adopted. The older children who desire it with all of their heart often are the happiest and most grateful of children you would ever have.

All are individuals.


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Sorry this is sort of dry facts to start with.
Please excuse spelling errors
I will be able to tell you more about feelings,trials and tribulations and the biggest joys later if desired

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AND I did have my own crisis, no children of my own which has been healed for the most part. I still find it to be the most surprising outcome in my life! There are numerous reasons.


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I would like to say;
I find it to be the most infuriating generally accepted personal questions from strangers wen posed. How did such a loaded personal issue become so OK to ask the details of! People are not satisfied with a yes or no answer! When I was raw with emotion I said it was too personal at this time.

I do not mean in this forum. I am happy to share most anything here. I meant just as a typical causual question that is anything but a casual decision to many childless persons. Some with children too - why can you ask about details of your childrens parentage in a casual conversation? Always seemed like something you should expect allow the other person to avoid.

I applaude PC for meeting the challenge head on It is a frequent one that never goes away. How about grandchildren questions started.......

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Gosh are you sorry I came a calling yet?

Abbi, lovely to 'see' you!

Thank you so much for your post and your honesty - it really means a lot.
I appreciate very much that you've come by and put in words your experiences
(and thank you too, PC, for sending Abbi over).

As I've decided not to post this on Ask, I reckon I can now explain what's going on:
I've been diagnosed with chronic high blood pressure (although we still don't know if it's essential or secondary - i.e. whether it's a symptom of itself or of something else) and for the last 3 months I've been experimented on with regards to medication.

The first batch made me really ill (I have severe allergies which is always a factor in everything), the second lot is not at maximum dosage and is also not entirely working at present. In the last few days (around the 2 weeks on this dose mark - dose can be upped once more) my measurements have gone down somewhat but they are still not at an acceptable level.

If it were to stabilise before Christmas I think that would just about be the best present ever!

In my family, I am the only woman over the age of 25 to not have any children. Most have 2-3, a notable few have more. Large families are the norm where I come from and there has always been a lot of interaction between the different branches of the family as well as different generations. Nowadays, having lived in the UK for 5+ years, family are the only contacts I have left there (plus one friend). It is important to me to maintain this contact.

I always assumed (as you do) that it would be just as easy for me as for the others in the family (no IVF anywhere that I know of, no adoptions, mostly easy births, hardly any complications) to have children and it may well be that I could easily fall pregnant.

With the BP thing came some complications though. Firstly, there is only one medication that I found that is safe during pregnancy and with my struggle to find one that would work for me, I don't want to assume that it will necessarily work for me.

The medication I am on currently would (if I were to ignore the labels and warnings and get pregnant) severely harm the foetus and probably cause it to die during pregnancy or soon after birth.

Going unmedicated would theoretically lead to increasingly high blood pressure until you reach pre-eclampsia, causing severe risk to me and the foetus. I could also have a heart attack or a stroke during the birth (or shortly afterwards - which happened to a friend of mine who didn't know she had BP problems until afterwards).

So I guess I'm trying to prepare myself for this huge possibility, unlikely though I hope it is, that I would be unable to have children naturally. And, I have admitted to myself, I do want them. At the risk of sounding like 'that person' I remember what our lives were like before we got our adorable dog. In comparison they now seem empty. And I'd like to have 2 kids, so that they're not like my husband who is an only child, stuck running around after his parents in emergencies. I'd like them to be at least able to share or delegate the handling of mother!

My way of dealing with things is to figure out every eventuality and then figure out exactly what I'd do in each case so that I am always in control. I know one can't be, and I cope magnificently when things go wrong, but a lot of that comes from always being prepared.

However, this is a huge deal - not one you can figure out quickly and I'm not trying to do that either. But people's input is always great to have.

My, wouldn't the world be a boring place if we were all the same?

"My, wouldn't the world be a boring place if we were all the same? "

YES! yes it would.Makes you appreciate the differences, or at least helps.

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I also try to figure from every angle. Never forgetting I can and will be surprised at times or just plain wrong! I believe for myself and maybe for you ,it does do some good. I span the range of emotions that are possible, after all we have only so many.

The intensity nor the exact reactions cannot be measured or predicted acurately until you are living it, or quite sometime later. It is all hypothetical when it comes to future feelings.

An imposition of change is so much harder than choice.
We all have some shocking experiences in life.

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My miscairages were in the 70's and early 80's -( my 20's 30's) Pre-clampsia was nearly impossible to deal with or predict in time.

1)I was later encouraged to try again to get pregnant at 40.
Because they had learned so much. I really wanted to.

2) another told me I might feel better IF I were to have a child because I would have so much to do I would "forget I was sick"

3) one dr told me it could change my immune system for the better as with a few other diseases...so try it , may work , may not(UM new approved cure method?)

4) One told me I would be selfish to have a child considering my health issues with such an unknown future (Um do people really know their futures?)

5) another says what if you had a disabled child, you would be unable to raise them since you are disabled , so you would have to relinquish (UH WHAT? I then had to consider the doctor might push their will onto myself and/or child)

6) one suggested it as a cure, for what he assumed was mostly selfishness.

Gosh recommending a child for a selfish mother, without consideration for the quality of life for the child! I am not sure who they were trying to help or why in some instances!


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New facts or opportunity could enter at any moment.

Not all Dr will agree. Some cannot help but frame situations based on their own personal feelings. They are only human.

The Increasing knowledge within medicine is startling.
Maybe talk to another of the best and brightest in OBstetrics if another professional opinion is desired. Even if there is a 2 year wait,and not to be your dr, 2 years can be pass either way!

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A biggie for myself is ONE day at a time.
We can exhaust ourselves fighting a powerful truth we can easily deny or fool ourselves about for a while.
All big changes started one day!
One day , one instant. One can heal, create ,bring wisdom, empathy,patience, preparedness, confidence, opportunity,clarity. Though a decade of experience may well be behind it!

It is invaluable gift.
Children live in the moment.
If you cannot be there for them as wholely when you do not subcribe to their *natural way.

IT IS harder to live it as an adult. It may temporarily go but you will always be pulled back to center. Sometimes the child leads for you

When a day at a time is too much, go it an hour at a time.
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You have prepared nicely. . Cheers to you for Getting the facts

Be prepared to LEAP I think that you are close!

Mad Meg-h2g2 whom is anything but mad Is a midwife, mother and all round spectacular woman. She was considering fostering also. Maybe you two could talk. She was very busy starting a pratice of her own a couple of years ago. I do not know if she is available online, I'll inquire if you like.

The biggest thing I am struck by is your sense of gratitude.
To quote you--- "If it were to stabilise before Christmas I think that would just about be the best present ever!" That would be the best

Thinking within a space of gratitude will serve you well.
It is a great gift to pass on to a child

Go with your heart ,head first so to speak!
Best of wishes for your bright future!

>4) One told me I would be selfish to have a child considering my health issues with such an unknown future

I have to say, that's one of the silliest things I've ever heard of a physician saying to a patient.

Setting aside that there's nothing wrong with a little bit of enlightened self-interest, I'm in agreement that none of us really *knows* what the future holds. A parent in perfect health can die suddenly in an accident, become ill after a child is born. Who knows? It's no more selfish for someone with medical issues to have children than someone without; the only consideration would be one's ability to afford both a reasonable level of medical care and to provide for one's child(ren)

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I haven't heard from Mad Meg for ages, but I agree that she'd have a lot of valuable perspective to add. (Gosh, I've missed hearing from her!) I hope she's still around!

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>Gosh recommending a child for a selfish mother, without consideration for the quality of life for the child! I am not sure who they were trying to help or why in some instances!

I wish someone would have talked my mother out of having children, sometimes. Don't get me wrong- I like being me and I like my life now, for the most part- but even though I love my dad, I always daydreamed about having a different family. I'm sure other children whose quality of life with their birth families are poor, feel the same way and would love the opportunity to live in a reasonably stable home with loving parents, rather than continue to face chaos, abuse or neglect.

I guess the only issue is what best meets your needs: providing a home for a child who needs fostering/ adopting, or using a surrogate/ adopting a newborn. Even as someone who doesn't particularly want kids, I can appreciate that if I changed my mind, there's a part of me that would want a newborn child rather than one that "came with" a developed personality and existing emotional attachments to parental units other than myself. That would be difficult, I think.

May I also add that I hope your Christmas wish will come true, Ismarah, and that your blood pressure will normalize. I'm hoping along with you that you'll find a successful treatment soon. Even better would be a complete remission!