h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Title says it all. It's amazing how people there like to masturbate. No wonder its dying.

But I remain hopeful it *will* change at some point.

I'm just sticking to personal guide entries now with my writing.

Next one is to be,

Dukes versus Kookaburras

Hey

Just had a read of the entry and the PR thread. Remember, just because someone suggests something doesn't mean you have to do it (or react to it ).

I agree with some of the comments that PR is for entries in the EG not only for the writer. People in PR put alot of time and energy into helping get an entry ready. Myself, I see an entry in PR as already partly owned by the community. Obviously the author still has the ultimate say up to the point where the entry is published, but once in PR there is a collaborative process going on, not simply one of this is my art and I'll do what I like with it.

But I also agree that you have the right to stop making changes and call it finished as you see it and I'll say that in the PR thread.

You can always remove an entry from PR too but I hope you leave it in for a while and see what happens. Maybe just let it be and see what the Scouts do now.

Well done btw, I really hope you write more.

Mal and Tufty utterly ruined a really good experience for me. You'll see I had a whole load of mish mash of people who were really one to one honest...that helped me. And then Tufty of the 100 boring entries turns up and Mal. They utterly miss the point of what I'm trying to 'make' as something quite complex in structure. Completely disregard my clearly expressed position.

None of the other people in the thread behaved like that.

I mean why should I think Mal and Tufty's opinions of much worth? They so missed the point of what I was doing. That's fair enough, but they should then accept that they are inacapable of getting what I'm attempting..and just re-ject it from the Guide. I'd be perfectly happy with that decision from *them* because I believe in what I'm trying to do.

I won't go back to PR again, unless there are changes. I went through 3 years of the crucible of Goldsmiths, having peer review every few weeks in front of 50 or so students and many staff...it's not like I can't deal with it...but the difference there was that I respected the intelligence and awareness of people in that situation. It was the happiest 3 years of my life. And *I* felt *respected there...that's the difference.

Mal recently suddenly turned on me for mentioning my degrees, I mean that's fact. I've little else in my life to feel proud about. Oh yeah and she made some nasty remark about me being some 'precious flower'. What a bloody joke. Tufty I've never had contact with before..but I had a look at some of his dreary 100 entries..and yes it made sense to me, why he wouldn't get what I was doing.

I don't expect everyone to get what I write..but I *expect* respect for what I'm attempting with some risk...and not total stupidity as a response.

I see the conflict here as being between your view that your entry is art, and other people's view that the point of any entry is that it's read in the context of the EG and therefore the 'art' has to fit into that. Because of that h2 PR has a completely different purpose than the Goldsmiths' one. Here the point is the EG, there the point presumably was to push you to be a better artist. They're not the same thing. Yes PR is meant to help writers be better writers but that is not it's primary purpose. I just see you being at odds with that. To the extent that you and others can accommodate that will determine what gets in the guide.

My own reading of the thread is that people were probably taken by surprise by your abrupt (to them) finishing and refusing to make and further changes. Not a criticism, just pointing out that that's not usually what happens there.

I think you've done really well, both with the entry and in PR. Don't let this put you off.

>that's not usually what happens there. <

Yes but I'm being *true* to my own way of working. For christ sakes everyone else seemed fine with it.

I didn't *break* any rules. I was just being myself.

And everyone knew it was my first experience of PR.

It's an utter joke at getting the best out of people..it's just a meaningless conveyor belt.

>>t. Oh yeah and she made some nasty remark about me being some 'precious flower'

How is that any different than you calling Tuffy's entries dreary in the way you do? Both are insults, and both will cause people to react and stop listening properly.

FWIW, I saw a huge amount of respect for you in that thread. And care. Yes, everyone didn't get what you were wanting or doing (myself included probably, if I'd been commenting on the entry I would have made more suggestions for changes too). But that's PR, and not everyone respects or values things in the same way.

Also FWIW, I don't see what Mal did as stupid. Most people in PR would think that more changes could make the entry more suitable for the EG. You disagree, but you don't have a huge amount of experience of what works in PR and what doesn't. I still believe you have the right to draw a line and say you don't want to make more changes, but calling people or their ideas stupid because you disagree with them is just going to cause antagonism. It's also unfair especially when they've spent time trying to help you.

I didn't realise there was history between you and Mal.

>>
Yes but I'm being *true* to my own way of working.
<<

True. And I'm sure you've experienced before (as have I) what happens when one's own truth conflicts with something outside of oneself


>>
For christ sakes everyone else seemed fine with it.
<<

I don't know, do you mean your process? I don't think there is anything wrong with people disagreeing with you, is there?

Mal said it *directly* to me. I'm just telling you my opinion of Tufty.

And yes most people were lovely. I don't feel comfortable with Mal anymore because of her attacking one of the few things I have to feel good about myself.

Maybe the difference with me is that I don't bloody care if they reject it for the EG. The work itself and learning is *far* more important than getting a stupid and to my mind rather embarassing badge on my ps.

Anyway thanks kea. I'm so angry it's best I leave things now. But I really appreciate you coming here and talking to me I'll have a proper read through all you've written tomorrow.

>>Mal said it *directly* to me. I'm just telling you my opinion of Tufty.

An insult is an insult, and saying it behind someone's back isn't an improvement IMO. Hopefully Tuffy won't see it here, but you've still said it in public.


I loved getting my few EGEs in the EG, and especially on the FP, it just made me feel good about myself, and to have my work respected in that way (beyond PR). For various RL reasons I hadn't written anything well like that for a long time, and it felt like I had achieved something worthwhile. I don't get much recognition in RL for what I do well, so that mean alot to me. But I think that people have all sorts of reasons for writing, and for writing for the EG.

Stepping away from it for a few days sounds like a good plan. I think we all need to do that at times.

Okay one more thing.

>I don't think there is anything wrong with people disagreeing with you, is there?<

Absolutely not. But then a dialogue can happen, and I expect people to actually listen and understand my reasons for disagreement. It's the way its done...and often for me *humour* helps no end.

Surely you know what I mean?

Anyway, another

As regards Tufty. I just don't care. If he's man enough, he'll live.

That's fine and presumably it's ok when people don't care about you and your work too? Sorry to belabour the point, I've just never understood the value of insulting people like that other than self gratification.


I do know what you mean. I think there are people in that thread who aren't used to your communication style. Also, even if you say THIS IS FINISHED, people are still allowed to disagree about that, because it's PR. You don't have to engage with that of course Z's advice to just wait and see what the Scouts say is good.


Anyway, I'll try and shut up now and let you have a break from it

I know, I know...shouldn't be here...should be sleeping. I'm trying to think why I got so cross with Tufty. I think its because he so completely missed the joke about the 'anal claspers'.

And yes that's true.

I really don't know whether I'll be able to fit in to the PR set-up.

The reason Goldsmiths was so great was that it allowed me to be extreme as an individual and extreme as part of a community. It's the only place I've ever felt normal. I had no fall outs, rows, strops etc amazing. I still miss it horribly.

Hi Effers.


I've had a quick look at your entry (which I think [with a few provisos] would be a wonderful addition to the Guide)

and

I've had a quick look at the PR conversation



and . . .


I would like to see you go back to the PR thread at some point *if* you come to a position at which you have a desire for your story to be in the Edited Guide *whatever it takes*. If you don't come to that point, then someday you might want to take the entry out of PR (which I think would be a sad outcome) and leave it as a very interesting and enjoyable 'ordinary' Guide Entry.



Have you ever tried to write a sonnet?

Many -- perhaps most -- people react to the idea of squeezing their ideas into a rigid form with horror.

When I first wrote something for PR, it didn't fit. It didn't just push up against the boundaries, which is what your entry does -- mine just didn't fit. When I got to know the form of the Edited Guide, I found that using the form actually made it easier to express what I was trying to get across in a way that worked *in the context of the Guide*. The structure was paradoxically freeing. I think I may have said something similar in regards to my decision to paint with a very limited palette. It was only after I took that decision that I actually had some sustained success with my visual art.

All that having been said, I don't think your entry in any way is unfit for picking up and sending to a sub-editor. Certainly, I would have done things a little differently, largely in the Guide ML department (headers, for example). A sub-editor or editor might choose to do some of those things, but you would have no control over that. Personally, I don't like to have the sub-editors or editors mess about with my writing too much, so I try to make my stuff as finished as possible before I put it in PR, including Guide ML.


Anyway, I was very pleased to see you plunging into that PR place. I'm still trying to get ~jwf~ to take the same plunge.

Hey anhaga, thanks so much for dropping by. I'm still so upset by the abrupt appearance on that thread after the whole process had been gone through...full of utter insensitivity and incomprehension of the absolute joy, and excitement of the initial discovery of those creatures in that amazing mountain stream.

I had no problem with people earlier in the thread giving me good hard feedback. It was the arrogant insensitive dismissal tone..after the incredible process of PR I'd just been through. I mean yes if you have 100+ entries under your belt...one seems like any other. But it was my first one..and he just trampled all over it with zero comprehension.

I agree with you about a tight structure. I completely know what you mean. But my first one could never be like that. Next one yes. I can't believe how little insight some have to the process of creativity.

Dr. Zen gets it though, thank goodness. And I only started doing this because I care about h2g2.

Yeah I'll happily talk to you about it...when I'm calmer. thank you.

Any changes I would suggest would be pretty much cosmetic.


Whenever you feel like it. I think it stands to be a fine addition. I particularly like that it is an intensely personal, experiential piece, but it manages nicely to stick to the 'avoid first person' guideline. That's what I tried to do with the epilogue of my Cave and Basin entry, and it flew through PR and into the Edited Guide with no one blinking an eye.

When the time comes, I'm sure yours will slide in nicely as well.

I'm going to post there now that I want to just take a bit of time to discuss it with you, away from PR...and then come back with it later.

I'd just like to do that in a separate thread.

I'll give it a good read and maybe make some notes, but it'll probably be tomorrow, my time, before I get to it.

I'll subscribe to the PR thread, as well.

Yeah no rush..I feel so much better now. Thank you.