h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Terrorists complete one of the most recklessly audacious terrorist plot in history, knocking Guy Fawkes into a cocked hat
Bush accuses them of 'cowardice'
Bush runs to hide in a nuclear bunker somewhere in Nebraska

So you think that there's something admirably 'audacious' about the Sept 11th atrocity, and that George Bush is a coward? There was nothing admirable about the former, and nothing reprehensible about the actions of the latter, given the context. And while most of us sat, for several days afterwards, aghast at the thought of the loss of innocent life, the most appropriate reaction you can come up with is one of smug amusement.

Sometimes, if all one can utter is poison, it's better to keep your stupid little mouth shut.

A few days ago, an American bomb in Afghanistan directly killed a hundred innocent civilians - men, women, and children. Every year a million children die because of bad feeding practices. More people die of hunger, every single day of every single year, than died in the World Trade Center. In the great scale of human suffering, the World Trade Center was a blip, and certainly not something I'm going to sit around aghast at for several days.

You'll notice that I didn't force this comment on anyone - I didn't go out of my way to interrupt anyone who might be grieving, nor did I post it to the Talking Point on the war. I also posted an appropriate message of condolence at the public Talking Point for those who lost their lives in the Sept 11 attacks, and for those who were losing (and still are losing) their lives in Afghanistan. I'm not spreading 'poison' as a weapon - I'm writing it here in my journal in accordance with the limited rights to Free Speech I enjoy on h2g2.

Do I think there's something audacious about the Sept 11 atrocity? Yes, though 'admirable' isn't the word I'd use. Bravery is not something enjoyed solely by the good guys. Nor is cowardice something enjoyed solely by the bad guys. Striking a blow against the most powerful nation in the world is brave. Doing it by an entirely new method of attack is also brave. Deliberately taking your own life for some higher purpose is one of the bravest things you can do, and is quite properly celebrated in literature and song as such. Misplaced though it was.

Do I think Bush was cowardly? Yes. While the mayor of New York was on the ground, calming panic and being a visible presence to reassure people and get them back to their normal lives, Bush ran away and hid, with his tail between his legs. Events have proved that his fear of further attacks was groundless, and his selfishness in hiding away added to the economic damage in the wake of Sept 11.

That answer your question?
-MyRedDice (in this case, bitter laughter, not smug laughter)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/F76594?thread=158093

All I can say is that luckily for the world's freedom-loving democracies, the British people who endured the blitz in WW2 (enemy bombs raining down on their cities day and night) didn't have the average New York-based Americans sad "Chicken Lickin (the sky is falling in" approach to adversity.

It also took more than the loss of a few buildings to wreck the British economy.

This is the first real attack by a foreign nation against the U.S. I have no doubt that when the first Vikings stepped on the soil of England and started raping and pillaging (remember, rape before you pillage!) the English ran around in circles hollering. They've had time since then to develop a little aplomb.

I suspect that 18th/19th-Century Native Americans and Mexicans would disagree with your statement.

Indians are native to America, so I don't think that would qualify as a foreign nation attacking the U.S.

As for the Mexicans, there's only two real battles I can think of - the Battle of the Alamo, against the Republic of Texas, and the Spanish-American war, which I'm sure is a real war in the history books, but I've always thought of it as Hearst's war. (William Randolph, btw) Until he began publishing inflammatory articles in his newspaper (he's where the term 'yellow journalism' comes from, actually) Americans had no intentions of starting a war with Spain.

Of course you probably know all this and you're just giving me a hard time... gee, thanks!

The native Americans were living in their own nations when the pigrims invaded

Hmm, yes. So we attacked them. Can we call it a attack by a foreign nation against U.S. soil? Well, no.

To mention just one incident from the War of 1812

British capture Fort Mackinac August 16, 1812, Michigan. U.S. lost THE fort as the British invade American territory

The Native Americans (Indians) were doing quite a bit of random invading at the same time.

Ah, yes... you're quite right, there was a little scuffle in 1812, wasn't there! Burned the White House, as I recall, which is why it's now painted white.

And now we have various government agencies invading US citizens (and others) privacy, reading their mail, emails etc

I'm talking about the Echelon(sp) spy network. It's operated by the British, USA, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand Governments.

By using the word Echelon, some faceless spook working for the NZ Government will probably read this post - and your reply.

Yeah - I met a guy who was linked to all that, though I doubt he read the stuff himself...

*waves to spys*

By using the word Echelon, some faceless spook working for the NZ Government will probably read this post - and your reply.

Should have read

By using the word Echelon, some faceless spook working for my employees, the NZ Government, will probably read this post - and your reply

And phooey to them. If they have so little to do that they're looking for hits of the word Echelon...

Echelon Echelon Echelon Echelon Echelon!

Then I pity them...

What's scaring me is the talk of a national ID system throughout the U.S. - making the licenses standardized rather than unique for each state. Under this system, authorities in any state can look up somebody's identification and find out all sorts of information I'd rather they didn't have - I'm no criminal, but I do like my privacy.

"You'll notice that I didn't force this comment on anyone - I didn't go out of my way to interrupt anyone who might be grieving, nor did I post it to the Talking Point on the war."

Oh, I noticed all right. It was through 'lurking' in such a forum that I found my way here in the first place. I suspect that your uncharacteristic restraint was motivated more by concern for YOUR feelings than for those of others. You'd have got roasted for airing such sentiments in the Talking Point, and ran scared of making them public. There was plenty of opportunity for 'free speech' regarding these views on h2g2 but you were too yellow to take advantage of it. 'Either put up or shut up', as the saying goes.

You talk the most sanctimonious twaddle, of course. An example of which is that "Deliberately taking your own life for some higher purpose is one of the bravest things you can do, and is quite properly celebrated in literature and song as such." Well, I look forward to the Broadway musical about Sept 11th, in that case, as it will be a REAL feelgood experience. As I do the musical about your Thomas Patrick Hamilton (who in my opinion) did much the same thing as the hijackers did, albeit on a smaller scale, except this involved a class of tiny children in Dunblane, their teacher and a pistol. The nature of the cause has more than peripheral bearing on the nobility of the deed.

Also, it's hard to imagine that the misery suffered by the victims of the war in Afghanistan is any more than a drop in the ocean of that suffered by the Afghans over the past twenty years, both under the Taleban and not. For the first time in decades, thanks to the Allied intervention, the Afghan people (and not just the men) have the hope of living in a modern, well-fed and democratic society, even if that reality seems a long way off right now.

Of course, a few minutes of reflection would have made you think that the whole issue was rather more complex than 'who's got the more moxie: Bush or al-Qaeda?' But from what I've seen so far, I don't think that reflection is your greatest strength.

Alex=B

> "The nature of the cause has more than peripheral bearing on the nobility of the deed."

And where exactly did I say the deed was noble? Bravery is not always noble, and in many cases it is not. I used the word 'reckless' for good reason.

Point is, you're trying to criticise me for something I've not said, and don't believe. Which is par for the course in the wider debate, so don't stop now.

> "Also, it's hard to imagine that the misery suffered by the victims of the war in Afghanistan is any more than a drop in the ocean....."

This would be you being 'sitting around, for several days afterwards, aghast at the thought of the loss of innocent life', presumably?

> "The whole issue was rather more complex than 'who's got the more moxie: Bush or al-Qaeda?'"

Umm, yes. I do hope you weren't expecting a full evaluation of the entire Afghanistan crisis in three lines. For a fuller (but still dramatically incomplete) evaluation, please read my posts everywhere else.

"Point is, you're trying to criticise me for something I've not said, and don't believe"

So why give that very same impression in your first posting? Why BOTHER to post it in the first place if you feel you couldn't do this subject justice? I hardly see how it could be misconstrued as anything else. You implied that giving one's life confers nobility on the action by saying that this kind of act gets celebrated in literature and song ('quite properly'). I wonder if the children on the flights, told by their parents that they were going to die, had that perspective?

Actually, a friend of mine lost a friend of hers in Sept 11th. She had just returned to work a month beforehand after being on maternity leave. She leaves behind a tiny baby, husband and many grieving friends. Some people cannot 'get on' with their lives, like my friend's friends and family. Those who feel they can, like you, should thank their lucky stars and shut up. Rather than scattering glib, supercilious observations. The attack on the WTC was fuelled by pure hatred and an unwillingness by al-Qaeda to accept anything Western and un-Islamic. That was the enormity of the crime. Senseless murder out of sheer spite.

Your backpedalling is risible. I shan't personally be bothering to read your posts anywhere else as the ones I HAVE read seem to go out of their way to be obstreperously smart-assed to the the point of self contradiction. Rather like this last one. I can honestly say that, for someone who thinks that relying upon first impressions is generally a BAD idea, in your case I was very wrong. You ARE a moron after all.

*unsubscribe*

Princess Di - The Musical, is attracting record crowds in Germany. Apparently, the speeding car in the tunnel bit is stunning.

A couple of questions.

If your friends friend cared so much about her 'wee baby' why on earth didn't she stay at home to attend to its needs?

And has her husband decided what he is going to spend his new found wealth on?