h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I'm very interested in this topic. So you teach your daughter using real-world examples? One of the examples on the website was "learning geometry through quiltmaking"... Is that accurate?

You're going to have to keep me abreast of how your daughter is doing. In my current timeline, I'll be having kids right around when your daughter is ready to move out of the house, so if she turns out well, maybe I'll look into unschooling. I've never been a fan of the school system...

Not sure if you saw this, so I'll bring it back up to recent-ness...

Arghhh. I DID miss it the first time around. I have been logged in to h2g2 for months and I have all of my current threads on different tabs in Netscape. The tab for my home space has been locked on to the "more posting" page, so I couldn't see my messages space, and I have never thought to subscribe to my own message space, so new messages don't show up in my conversation list. I suddenly thought to check it today and saw your message. Sorry.

In unschooling, the parents basically just provide a good learning environment and learning opportunities to the child. The child then just follows her own interests. It's basically just a continuation of what goes on before formal schooling for most kids. After all, no one formally teaches kids to talk or to walk, but they learn anyways. We never taught our daughter to read, but we read to her lots and one day, she corrected my wife when she made a mistake reading a book. My wife at first thought that she just knew the book by rote, but it turned out that my daughter was really reading. So, you see, our part is just providing the environment and opportunity (in this case, having lots of books and reading them to her).

Now, we have tons of books at home, both fiction and non-fiction, and Natalie (our daughter) reads them all. We get lots of books from the library, too. We also involve our daughter in the things we do, and she goes everywhere with us. We've never talked down to her, using only simple words for example, and as a result she has an amazing vocabulary (some from us, lots from her reading).

Socialization is not a problem with home schooling. In fact, the problem is more with the socialization that happens at school. There, you get a bunch of kids all the same age with no social skills thrown together and expected to develop social skills. Doesn't sound like it would be too effective to me. In homeschooling, kids learn social skills from people of all different ages, in highly varied social situations.

In our case, the only socialization problem that we have is one that may have occured in school anyway. Our daughter has only a few friends her own age (but lots of other ages), and no very close friends. There are a number of reasons for this. First is that she is very sensitive and can't take too much input/excitement, or else she has an emotional blow-out later (which us parents get to endure). So, she can't have too many "outward" activities, which has limited her availability for play dates. Second, we have moved quite a few times in her lifetime. Third, my wife is also very sensitive and can't handle too many scheduled activities. So, we haven't enrolled Natalie in many lessons, etc., and haven't joined any homeschooling groups - places where she might meet other kids. (This is slowly changing as Natalie matures and can handle more stuff - we are now on a mailing list for a homeschooling group and expect to take part in some activities with them soon).

Now, although the friends thing seems to be a drawback, it is actually an advantage of homeschooling. With homeschooling, we were able to arrange things to suit the temprament of our child, whereas in school, she would have just been overwhelmed.

Anyway, that's probably enough for now. The best thing you can do to learn about unschooling is to read "Instead of Schooling" by John Holt. Excellent book.

Fascinating!

I've always felt that the public school system here is dreadfully inadequate. Children are left behind, but shuffled along from grade to grade because teachers don't care to actually make them catch up! I made it through public high school mostly because I went to a private school that taught me good school habits in the beginning. But it was much too rigid and controlling. The three good things I got from a Catholic school were good school habits, high morals and respect (fear) for authority. And a pretty decent sex education for having been in a strict religious environment...

It seems that in exposing Natalie to adults primarily (as children are in school much of the day) would make her mature more quickly. Sounds good to me! I wonder what her teen years will be like, without too many bad examples for her. It seems to me that she would be more of an individual. Peer pressure was the reason I did a lot of dumb growing up, and she (hopefully) would have less of that problem. *crosses fingers* At the very least, she won't be demanding designer jeans and a cell phone right away, like my sister...

The only problem for me would be that one of us would have to be a stay-at-home parent. And that would probably be my responsibility, seeing as my fiance is quite immature and likely a bad example for any child to be following.

Sounds like Natalie is very bright! Maybe someday I'll get to meet her, far in the future. How do grades/transcripts/records/whatever from Unschooling translate when she applies to college? (Assuming, that is, that she goes... but you're college-educated, so I tend to assume that she probably will...?)

Your mention of the respect (fear) of authority is very pertinent. Schools do that - train up the citizenry to be nice and docile for the authorities. They do a very good job of it too. They also perpetuate the myth of the expert - that no matter what the problem or task, there is some expert out there who knows more about it than you do, and that there is a "right" way to do things. Both of those ideas are crap. Anyone is capable of coming up with new and better ways of doing things.

Natalie IS very mature for her age, which can be a bit of a problem sometimes. She is sometimes disappointed with the behaviour of friends that go to school, and tends to prefer kids that are at least a couple of years older than her. A few years ago, we had several experiences where Natalie became friends with someone and they got along very well. Until that kid started going to school. Then, the kid became very selfish and competitive, while Natalie stayed kind and cooperative. Eventually, Natalie just didn't like the kid anymore and we stopped seeing her. This happened a few times.

The other thing that happens with friends is that many kids are very booked-up with lessons, etc. and have very little time to just hang out and think their own thoughts. Which means that it is often hard to arrange play dates with those kids.

The peer-pressure thing is something we hope to avoid too, but Natalie is very strong and confident in herself, so I think she has been inocculated. She is 11 now, but has already developed some teen attitudes towards her parents. She likes to argue and certainly doesn't fear our authority. We've always reasoned with her, but now she can reason circles around us and she hasn't learned yet when to back down.

One parent staying at home is very much a drawback to home schooling. It's a huge financial sacrifice and my wife also gets restless at home. Since Natalie does most of her learning on her own, my wife feels somewhat useless. She has an engineering degree too, plus a teaching degree and she loved teaching when she was doing it before Natalie was born. She feels a little resentful sometimes that she can't make use of those skills and earn an income. We still struggle with that and at some point she will probably go back to work - but hopefully not until Natalie is 16 and can stay at home by herself.

As for college, there are various routes. Some of the colleges (more all the time) have admission procedures for home schooled kids. The kids can write the SAT, just like anyone else, and they can often take a few individual college courses before entering college full time. Also, you can take high school courses by correspondence, so she could get the actual credits needed. The thing is, if she wants to go, we will find a way to get her there. In the worst case, she could always take the final year of high school in an actual school.

I bet that's rough on your wife. She sounds like a great mother, though, to set aside her career for Natalie. It sounds like you guys are doing very well with her. When Natalie gets older, I'm sure she'll have no trouble getting back into teaching. And hopefully she won't have to worry too much about her teenage daughter, since she raised her so well.

I can relate to what you're saying about Natalie's maturity. I was always much more mature than my peers, even to this day. I'm always disappointed in people who party their educations away, and disapprove greatly of drinking in general. I'm getting better about that, though. I still don't understand it, but I'm learning to accept that other people do it. I likely never will, but hopefully it won't bother me so much when others do. It's hard sometimes, being far too mature for my age. Causes problems with the fiance, too. But I think we're good for each other. I'm making him grow up, and he's making me be less serious and have a good time.

As for respect (fear) for authority, I think it's given me a much healthier perspective on teachers and authority figures in general. I was always the kid at school that the teachers loved, not because I was a sycophant, but because I treated them like human beings instead of disciplinarians. I did what I was told because I knew that's what I needed to do to do well in school. I didn't need the negative attention that my peers craved. It was nice, because then I could pretty much get away with murder...

Though the idea of the "expert" rings pretty true in my case. I never feel like I'm the one who ought to be the leader, and that might be why I'm putting so little effort into my studies these days. I just don't feel like I'm learning anything, though I am fortunate to mostly be taking classes that pertain to things I am greatly interested in. Hmm. That idea bears some serious thought.

I'd be willing to bet Natalie aces the SATs. I can't wait to see what she gets when she takes them.

Incidentally, I discussed homeschooling a bit with the fiance. He wasn't into it. *rolls eyes* He just doesn't want to be a stay-at-home dad. We're already going to clash over what age our kids can shoot guns, whether or not they can play video games, etc etc. I'm tempted to just give up on the kids idea altogether. Hmmph!

Get him to read John Holt's "Instead of Education" (and read it yourself ). The book is a real eye-opener and makes so much sense.

No doubt, homeschooling requires someone to put their career on hold, at least temporarily. It's a real sacrifice and lots of people just can't do it, either because they really can't afford to survive on one income, or because they are unwilling to set aside their own goals in favour of their child. Believe me, when Natalie is acting up, we sure agonize over the decision. So far, we have stuck with it, but there are times...

*puts on his "Dad" hat*

I know you love your fiance, but that you see some, er, flaws in him. Whatever you do, don't make the mistake of expecting that you'll be able to change him with time. For the most part, people change in small ways, and maybe mellow a bit as they get older, but basically remain the same all their lives. So think hard about whether you can live all of your life with those "flaws". If the answer is yes, then just accept them and don't try to change them - it only leads to strife. With any luck, they will change by themselves.

*giggles* Thanks, Dad.

I love how my internet friends take better care of me than my own dad. He's the kind of guy who spends his entire vacation on the cell phone with his employees.

I know he probably won't change much. I know I can't change him. If we can't agree on how our kids will be raised, we won't have them. I'm not even going to bother trying to figure things out between us (thought I will look for that book!) because it very well be a moot point for medical reasons. I accept that he will likely be immature for the rest of his life. I can deal with that, or at least I'm pretty sure I can.

BUT:

There are things that need to change, if for no other reason than both of our survival. He needs to get a decent job and he needs to learn how to budget. He needs to learn to live within his means.

It's not a change, really. It's more of a life skill that his stupid parents never bothered to teach him. He's made a lot of progress since we first started dating, which is good. If he had continued to be the guy he was then, we wouldn't still be together.

....I wonder if you're going to have more to say after you read my last journal entry...

Definately had more to say, and I said it there.

I suggest a very, very, VERY long engagement. Living with him is a good idea, as a sort of trial run. But don't get married soon. Let it go for a year or two - if you get married in the end, the wait won't have mattered, but if you decide against it, you will be very thankful you waited.

(My wife and I dated for 6 years before getting married. We've been married for 17 years - 18 years in July)

We've been living together for almost a year now... and we unofficially lived together for probably 8 months before that. So it's been a while...

Maybe you're right. Maybe I ought to put it off a while. It's just that it would be so much easier if we were married because then he'd have insurance and such through my job... Car insurance, health insurance, dental, vision (he wears contacts), and I wouldn't so much have to worry. As it is now, he's been taking very good care of his last pair of contacts so they'll last indefinitely, and wouldn't be able to get health care unless it was a dire emergency. It almost seems worth taking the stress of marrying him if he'd at least be able to take care of himself. Not to mention that he'd have an easier time getting into USC since he'd have a close relative who went there.

But then sometimes I feel like I'm trapped in this life I've built for myself... Everything is planned and on its way. Sometimes I just want to pack up my things and move to Africa... but then I'd be saddling my parents with my student loan debt, and I'm not that kind of person. So I guess I'm stuck either way until I pay those off, at least. It just bugs me that I already know I'd pay them off twice as fast if W wasn't going to be spending all my money... *sigh*

And besides, if you went to Africa, you'd probably just pick up a parasite or two and be sick for the rest of your life.

My wife gets that trapped feeling quite easily. Paradoxically, she also is very goal-oriented. This means that we decide on some goals, make plans to make them happen, then she feels trapped because the future is so planned. She recognises this pattern, though, and has learned to shrug off the trapped feeling. After all, if the trap is of your own making and you choose to enter it, then is it really a trap? (sounds like a zen koan, or something).

Myself, I'm the opposite. I go with the flow and enjoy the trip. I make plans, of course, and do my best to make them happen, but if they go awry, I don't really mind. I'm also prudent about providing for my future, striking a reasonable balance between living now and saving for then. I guess balance is the key word for my personal philosophy. I don't attach too much importance to what happens in my life - I make the best decisions at the time, but don't really worry about the outcome of those decisions. Life is just a bunch of experiences stacked up on top of each other, some good, some bad. Some change the course of your life, but even if they hadn't you would never know and would probably still have a good life. So in the end, it doesn't really matter what happens to you, so long as you have a positive outlook.

I think I strayed a bit from the point, there. Anyway, burried in that bunch of philosophising is the idea that there is lots of time for your life - you don't need to rush any decision. Giving it a little time could make all the difference.

Bah. At least I'd have thousands of good stories about my travels in Africa.

That sounds exactly like me. I am very goal oriented as well. I want to be a policewoman, so I got an internship at the station. I'm going to major in International Relations, and this summer I'm taking another job at the station to get to know another facet of police work. Once I graduate, I'll start the academy.

If, after a few years, I decide that police work is not for me, I can apply to work for the government in pretty much any position since they look very highly on prior police experience, and I'm fantastic with languages, which means I'd be good with travelling and/or interpreting. So I've got a pretty good backup plan as well.

Which should be very comforting that I've got everything figured out, but still I feel trapped. I'm going to work on being more zen about this. Sounds like your wife is me, but with the brains to recognize the problem.

*takes several deep, calming breaths*