h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hope you don't mind me starting this here Ed? After what Dogster said and then he suddenly found no time at all to set the thread up I suggested, I wanted to comment further. As I said I didn't want to carry on, on the other thread, because I hated the title. The whole thing has played on my mind every time I come to h2g2 now.

>>OK but I've sort of said most of what I intended to say already. I've got to do some tedious washing and packing for my trip tomorrow, so I may or may not have time to get on this before I leave.<<

Dogster said this. And so far he's just accused *me* of bullying.

>> I don't hold you uniquely responsible for the bullying that went on in that thread, but you did participate in it and I think you should know that. If I was bullying someone, I would want to know about it.<<

And yet he says he's said all he wanted. So why so coy about mentioning anyone else??? And now he's gone off somewhere, leaving all this 'up in the air'. I *don't* think that is acceptable.

>>From my observation of the thread, there is very little doubt that the current nastiness is a result of attacks on Vicky, and not the other way around. <<

I completely disagree with this. Yet again last night we had her usual attempt to derail the conversation on TGT; she made absolutely no attempt to engage with the interesting discussion that had begun.

Ed said

>>One last thing - I hear from back channels that Atheists are not giving a good impresiion on TGD. Some good, intelligent people see us as bullying. Right or wrong - we should bear this in mind.<<

Back channels? Why back channels and not upfront? Who are these good intelligent people? Why don't they front up?

I've now had one or two fairly unpleasantish posts from that bloke Rev on my messages, and of course Vicky's message, that has been deleted. But I had a lovely supportive one from Kelapasebar, which has cheered me.

***I'm generally feeling quite fed up with what's going on. If people have a problem with what's going on, why don't they spell it out clearly rather than just giving vague hints and stuff? Rumour? If I ever accused someone of bullying I would spell it out really clearly and explain why I thought it. And I wouldn't just pick on one person if I thought it was a group thing. That ironically would smack of bullying.

Sorry for the line by line dissection thing, Ed. I know it annoys you. But I think it was needed in this case to explain the situation properly and provide the evidence of what has actually been said.

Hi Effers,

I happen to know that Dogster is out of the country for a few days, hence he also cannot continue with our scrabble games until possibly Wednesday (and yes, it's still your turn Edward). So he isn't being coy - he simply isn't around.

As for being accused of bullying, I've seen quite a bit of it on that thread, including (but not exclusively) in some of your posts. Other 'bullies' include SoRB, blicky, Roy ... just so you feel in good company.

Honestly, don't get your knickers in a twist over Della (who is also being a bully). I used to a few years ago and finally learned that it was more than a waste of time. If you want to debate with her, know that she will always resort to the usual ploys and tactics that leave you fuming, so your only choice is to walk away or decide the ploys and tactics are silly and don't let them get to you. Or else do what you're doing now and get upset over what some woman in New Zealand who you don't even know has to say.

Of course she is always trying to derail threads - it's called attention seeking. And the more you treat her seriously the more she'll keep doing it (speaking from personal experience).

Anyhow, butting out now. Can't actually recall how I ended up here...


az

First of all - Backchannels. Things I've read from others. Why aren't they upfront? Well why on earth would they want to get involved? It's their right not to.

Now. I find Della's homophobia as despicable as anyone. I promise. And I am frustated by her inane 'arguments'. Plus, despite my refusing (I think) to rise to her debate - she's clearly got it in for me.

And yet and yet...Look. What good is it responding in kind? What good is it trying to win every single skirmish. What are we trying to prove? To whom? I'm afraid that to the casual observer, who may not have the whole history (and why should they bother), it really does look like a gang bang. "Ah, wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us/ To see oursel's as others see us."

I totally agree that homophobia has to be challenged. Always. But haven't the challenges started to spill out? Fight The Good Fight, yes. Of course. But when people start fighting her on every single point of intellectual dishonesty or lack of evidence or selective meomory on what she's said, or scientific ignorance, etc. etc. etc. - well, whether you're right or not, whether she desrves it or not, it possibly starts to look like others - and feel to Della, even - like bullying.

I can see why it happens, and I assure you I'm still On The Side Of The Angels. But can't people I like be a little more *smart*. A well-aimed rapier is more effective than a club. And more fun.

You're all so much better than her. Let's make that clear to the whole world.

Well things have calmed down a bit. And I've really tried to think honestly what I've got so cross about. I think it's the fact that such an interesting thread as the Dawkins thread has been subjected to numerous attempts to derail it. It really has easily been the most informative and fascinating thread I've yet to be involved with on this site. And even despite the problems I still feel grateful, for some really excellent input and discussion with other lovely hootooers.

Lets see how things go. I think because I'm someone that so values intellectual debate, I am hugely intolerant of people that try to sabotage that. It's such a precious thing. It's what's so great about this site. That's why I become hugely sarcastic in response. I still deny the accusation of bullying.

The childish homophobia and silly insults really aren't the main problem for me now.

I hope the thread continues, even if the problems come back.

Thanks to all who have inputted here and on the previous thread.

Effers,

As az said, and I said in my last post on the previous thread, I've been travelling and didn't have any internet access.

I would like to make a comment on this:

"Back channels? Why back channels and not upfront? Who are these good intelligent people? Why don't they front up?"

Having fronted up, you accused me of being the sort of person who would have been a Nazi collaborator, implied that I purposefully left the thread despite my (repeatedly) saying that I was going to be travelling, and even suggested that I was bullying you. I think it's pretty clear why more people haven't said anything.

az has just said most of what I'd have said. I didn't mention the other people (SoRB etc.) because I thought it was fairly obvious who the people on that thread involved in laying into Vicky were. And I'm sorry if you think I'm uniquely getting at you. The criticism applies just as much to SoRB etc. Let me say a few words in my defence. My original post was in reply to a post of Ed's, here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/FFM1860406?thread=4813659&skip=0&show=20#p56022471

Ed said that he knew that there were people who thought the atheists on the TGD thread were giving a bad impression. I thought I would make it explicit that I was one of those people (presumably there are others). This first post wasn't directed at you Effers. My second post was in response to yours and was more personal, quite reasonably in my opinion.

The reason I said that I'd said all I wanted to say was that you hadn't replied to any of the points I made in those two posts, other than to say that you didn't see it from point of view, and that you disagreed. There's not much I can add to that.

I can appreciate your point that I haven't backed up my claim that the bullying started with the atheists. I didn't do so for two reasons. Firstly, it's been developing over the last roughly 1,000-1,500 posts, and I don't particularly feel like spending an entire day trawling back over that. There would be no other way to establish how it started other than doing that. Secondly, I just wanted to give my opinion as to how it started. I thought that my impression might be useful as I think I'm both neutral (belonging to neither the anti-theist nor theist camps) and pretty reasonable - and understood to be both.

To give some positive (rather than just defensive) substance to this point, I'll reply to this:

"Yet again last night we had her usual attempt to derail the conversation on TGT; she made absolutely no attempt to engage with the interesting discussion that had begun."

What would you say to this? One person can't derail a thread with many active participants. At the very minimum, you're free to ignore Vicky. Alternatively, you could highlight the irrationality of the arguments (or lack thereof) she's making - instead you choose to attack her personally. Again, I can understand that her opinions make you angry, and probably make many other people angry too. But when a group of people all join together in their anger and start attacking a person, that's mob behaviour, and it's not a good thing.

>>I didn't mention the other people (SoRB etc.) because I thought it was fairly obvious who the people on that thread involved in laying into Vicky were.<<

Oh so now it's me and 'SoRB etc'. This isn't on Dogster. Accusing someone of bullying is fairly unpleasant, even more so when it's being suggested that its part of a concerted group thing. And I repeat if I did it, I'd clearly name who I thought it was and why I thought it. I deny it, and say as far as I can remember I used strong sarcasm in response to repeated expressions of fairly vile homophobia, and repeated attempts to derail discussion on a fascinating thread. I used to not know why Vicky got such a hard time, but now I've seen the full extent of her modus operendi, I completely understand. And I think you should question Dogster, why you are sticking up for someone whose views directly compare to fascist views that other races are inferior in some way. I don't buy this fence sitting, seeing both side's POV, when it comes to certain things. As I said I am by nature a fighter type. Particularly when I could so easily have fallen into the 'victim' mode, so beloved by Vicky.

And the reason I was annoyed that you stirred all this up just before going offline for a while is that you should thought of that when you decided to accuse me of bullying 'poor me' Vicky on a thread that I'd started because I was so upset. I accepted your apology at the time, as you should the one I gave you when I went a bit over the top on the nazi sympathizer thing.

But it appears that Vicky has now calmed down a bit in her behaviour on that thread, and you'll notice that in general, interesting debate now flourishes once more.

I have to say...I can see FA's point. Della made it personal in two ways. Firstly, by an attack on homosexuality, secondly by random jibes against anyone - gay or straight - who pulled her up on this. Obviously she quickly found herself in a minority of one and was able to claim persecution. This is what she likes to do - it's her against the big, bad world. She does it time and time again.

That said...what always happens in these situations is that people eventually lose it with her. She's a human shrapnel grenade. Chaos ensues. I can well understand why people react angrily to her. I can well understand why, from a (ahem) god's eye view, neither side looks pretty. Smarter tactics are needed.

And you see what's happened here? People who are on the same side on the underlying issue have ended up Arguing About Arguing. I suggest that you, Dogster, are in danger of making an inappropriate friend and you, FA, an unecessary enemy.

As ever good sense, Ed

<>

I thought that was understood, Effie, and you even agreed to 'being in good company'.

Also, *not fighting* with someone doesn't mean you agree with what they have posted. So I don't understand the 'inappropriate friend' comment, Ed. Dogster and Della? Dogster's been around even longer than Nog (and much longer than me) so I reckon he's seen a lot more of Della than you guys realise.

Meanwhile, I bet Della is quite enjoying this thread . . .

az

>> Dogster's been around even longer than Nog (and much longer than me)<<

Well even less excuse for his excusing her then!

>>Meanwhile, I bet Della is quite enjoying this thread<<

I'm in total agreement with you there....

I didn't mean for the words to be taken literally.

This post has been removed.

"And I think you should question Dogster, why you are sticking up for someone whose views directly compare to fascist views that other races are inferior in some way."

I would stick up for someone being bullied whatever their views actually. On the other hand, I wouldn't idolise a group of people who think that Muslims should be second class citizens, that the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq either didn't happen or are not on our conscience, etc., just because they happen to agree with me on the subject of the non-existence of God.

"I don't buy this fence sitting, seeing both side's POV, when it comes to certain things."

I'm not fence sitting. I've always made it clear that I don't believe in God but that I don't think religion is as evil as the anti-theists make out. That's why I'm not in either camp. Anyway, even if I believed that religion was inherently evil, I still wouldn't ever choose to be in the same camp as people like Hitchens, Harris and Dawkins (in descending order of offensiveness).

"And the reason I was annoyed that you stirred all this up just before going offline for a while is that you should thought of that when you decided to accuse me of bullying 'poor me' Vicky on a thread that I'd started because I was so upset."

When I originally posted I didn't accuse you directly of bullying, and I hadn't meant to get into this discussion.

"I accepted your apology at the time, as you should the one I gave you when I went a bit over the top on the nazi sympathizer thing."

I do accept your apology, but that doesn't mean I can't mention it when it's relevant (and it is relevant in understanding why nobody else has piped up about the bullying on that thread).

OK I'm going to make one last separate post in response to what Ed said.

Ed, maybe Vicky does like to put herself into the victim role, but even if so, that doesn't excuse people who play along with it.

"And you see what's happened here? People who are on the same side on the underlying issue have ended up Arguing About Arguing."

Sure, and it's pretty tedious, I quite agree. But we can't ignore the social issues involved, nor how we as a group are relating to others. These things are important as well as the underlying intellectual issues.

Well this is utterly meaningless Dogster, as you've given zero context for my posts. And I look forward to you wasting your time, for all the other members of the bullying group of poor me Vicky, who you notice I have consistently called Vicky for some time now.

After Ed's sane and sensible post earlier I had felt like compromising and being reasonable with you. You'll notice my reaction to Ed's post. >>AS ever good sense Ed. az has pointed out to me that you have been around for donkeys years, and yet have suddenly decided to focus on me for some reason as principal Della tormentor. Yes I've decide to revert to calling her Della now.

And yes az is so right, Della will be absolutely loving this, but then you'd be more than happy to give her, her the buzz that she so clearly craves.

>>OK, since I've been asked, I've gone through the TGD thread searching for posts by Effers that address Vicky, and this is a sample<<

This is absolutely what I did NOT ask for. I asked for reasoned arguments. I'd assumed you'd understand that that would include context.

I also take back my previous apology to you.

>>I will continue in a separate post to break this long post up a bit.<<

Go right ahead Dogster, but I won't bother reading it, if it's anything like this utterly meaningless shopping list.

Actually it's fairly clear to me Dogster that you are quite a bully. Particularly after someone has felt quite upset and attacked in their identity by a homophobe, who I place on a par with fascism.

But like I have said I'm a fighter by nature, so up yours!

Well, assuming that my post is reinstated, I would honestly like others opinions on whether that posting of mine went too far (by email if you prefer). And don't worry about upsetting me if you think I did - just say so. In case it gets modded, I can just tell you that it's a list of quotes of things Effers has said to or about Vicky, probably 50 quotes or so, culled from the TGD thread.

Obviously Effers thought it went too far. But how else am I to respond to Effers repeated requests to make it explicit other than by quoting her? It's fairly difficult to provide context on a situation that developed over 3000 posts, and so despite my protesting that I didn't want to, I made an attempt at making it explicit in a way that didn't require me to carefully reread 3000 posts, and write an enormous essay contextualising it all. Yes, there's no context, but my purpose was to demonstrate the hostile attitude towards Vicky herself rather than towards her ideas, and you don't need context for that.

I will also note, in case the moderators look at the context to decide whether a post breaks the house rules or not, that I don't think the post in question was harassment (the only house rule that I could see that it might infringe), because I said that I didn't want to make things explicit, and only did so because I had been repeatedly asked. I also only quoted what Effers had said herself.

I will say that I'm very sorry that it has come to this. I don't apologise for standing up for someone who I see, rightly or wrongly, as being bullied, but I am sorry that I couldn't manage to do so in a way that didn't lead to such unpleasantness.

I remember standing up for Della a few times, especially when SoRB and blicky got way out of hand with the insults and bullying. This didn't mean I agreed with what she had been saying, just that the bullying was derailing the thread as much as Della's inflammatory comments were, all of which then led to the so-called 'Della Wars'. It sure got tedious.

<>

Sounds like something Nog would say, Dogster.

Why are you being so uppity about this, Effers? From where I'm sitting it looks like you are taking offense for no real reason, only over things you have assumed Dogster to be doing. It's usually best not to assume that we know why people have done or said things and check with them first before making accusations.


az