h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hello.

I've noticed you talking to Justin, and Insight. Interesting pair. You might do well also to listen to Matholwch.

I have some questions and suggestions - take em or leave em.

1. You seem to be looking for something. Why?

By that I mean you seem to be trying to find a religion to hang your hat on. I wonder what it is you feel your life is lacking?

2. Why are you looking to religion?

I can understand that you are - most people do. It's a very popular course to take, and its very popularity means more people will take it. However, I have observed that many people don't actually think, at any stage, why they're looking where they're looking. Even fewer think to wonder why they're looking at all - see question 1.

I'm not trying to make you an atheist, or a humanist, or a rationalist, or a Buddhist, or anything with "ist" on the end.

I'm just suggesting that as you look for something, you allow your thinking to rise up a level, and consider why you're looking for religion, or up another level and consider why you're looking at all.

hi member,hows you? let me tel you a bit about why i am a christian. i did not set out looking for god,rather he found me. i went into care at the age of 3 and started going to sunday school.eventuaally i was adopted by my sunday schoolteacher at the age of 8 so i was brought up with christianity.as i got older i started to question it and stopped believing.at the age of 21 i met my birth mother and she asked me to go to church with her.while at that church something happened to me that i can only explain as feeling the prescence of god. i could not stop crying but at the same time i felt an enormous sense of peace and love.as i said to my mother afterwards "i feel like i've just had 12 orgasms" thats the only way i could think to describe it.so there you go.that is why im a christian

hi member,hows you? let me tel you a bit about why i am a christian. i did not set out looking for god,rather he found me. i went into care at the age of 3 and started going to sunday school.eventuaally i was adopted by my sunday schoolteacher at the age of 8 so i was brought up with christianity.as i got older i started to question it and stopped believing.at the age of 21 i met my birth mother and she asked me to go to church with her.while at that church something happened to me that i can only explain as feeling the prescence of god. i could not stop crying but at the same time i felt an enormous sense of peace and love.as i said to my mother afterwards "i feel like i've just had 12 orgasms" thats the only way i could think to describe it.so there you go.that is why im a christian.i was not looking for god but he found me.
hope this helps ruth

Wow. Quite a story. I asked you what you felt your life was lacking. Thanks for a much more honest and complete answer to that question than I was anticipating.

I could go on, I really could, but I don't want to offend you, and I feel I might if I question you further.

I'll just ask you one thing - do you think God would have found you if the two most important people in your life weren't Christians and you'd been left to think for yourself?

well,i cant answer that can i?but i do know that i decided for myself that there was no such thing as god so i went my own way n admittedly made rather a mess of things. you cant think its bad to try to be a good person surely? may i ask if you feel your life is complete?does anyone? no offence taken,none meant, agape love ruth

Of course it's not bad to try to be a good person.

What I DO think is bad is this: trying to be a good person, only because you've either been threatened with a horrible punishment if you don't, or because you've been promised something really nice if you do. Which is your basic Christian reason for doing good, isn't it? Selfishness. You do good because you "know" that if you do, you get to go to heaven, and if you don't, you burn in hell.

It's exactly, in every respect, the Santa ploy. Behave yourself, and Santa will bring you presents. Misbehave, and he won't. Parents tell this lie to their children because they know it's a charming story that enhances children's sense of wonder, and also because it is a useful tool to control their behaviour. Most kids have seen through it by the time they're seven or eight, if not sooner. By that time, they should be doing as their parents tell them out of respect and a recognition that life is better that way, rather than threats and cajolements. And yet the threats continue - from the pulpit. And the parents go on telling the stories to their kids, and the kids, for some reason, never grow out of it - or do grow out of it, but come back to it later in life. Weird.

Whereas I do good, or try to, simply because it's the right thing to do - that's all. I do so not in any hope of reward, because I know doing good is mostly a thankless task. And I do it not because someone will punish me if I don't. Quite the reverse - if my experience of life is anything to go by, those who do bad are punished very rarely. I do what good I can simply because it's what you're supposed to do in a civilised society, isn't it?

And is my life complete? I certainly hope not. Because surely, if your life is complete, the only sensible thing left to do is die - isn't it?

hi member. been rather busy what with christmas and all.How was yours? Nice,i hope? Let me try and reply to your post. I try to do good to other people to show them that they are special and loved just as i am.As jesus said, Healthy people do not need a doctor.I am certainly far from perfect but i have a best friend who came to show me a good way to be.I just try to follow his example.I find that when i do good things i feel much better about myself really and it great for me to know that i have someone who i can tell everything and who knows everything about me and loves me just as i am.I am sure everyone has things they couldnt tell their very best friend but my best friend loves me so much that he died for me .If god is for us who can be against us? dont you ever feel that doing good is a reward in its self? i believe that jesus talks about what some would call karma. what goes around comes around. people respect you and trust you because you are good. anyway i'm all typed out,have an excellant new year,bfn t.c ruth

"hi member."

Hi.

"been rather busy what with christmas and all.How was yours? Nice,i hope?"

The usual mixture of good cheer and violent stomach cramp.

"I try to do good to other people to show them that they are special and loved just as i am."

Good for you. Why do you need some framework to back that up though? I try to do the same.

"As jesus said, Healthy people do not need a doctor."

Hmm. I'd say healthy people DO need a doctor, to administer such things as cholesterol tests and other preventative techniques. But you can't expect Jesus to have known about that kind of stuff, given his background.

"I am certainly far from perfect but i have a best friend who came to show me a good way to be."

I used to have an imaginary friend when I was a small child too.

"I find that when i do good things i feel much better about myself"

Me too. No imaginary friend required. Trust me - doing good feels good by itself.

"it's great for me to know that i have someone who i can tell everything and who knows everything about me and loves me just as i am."

Well, yes, imaginary friends can be comforting. Real friends are better in most cases though. The best friend you have, though, is yourself. If you believe in yourself, you don't need to believe in anything else.

"If god is for us who can be against us?"

Ask the people who died in the earthquake in Iran.

God either was against them - in which case he's evil - or he was for them - in which case he's useless. Bad news either way, as I see it.

That's the trouble with having an imaginary friend - they're imaginary. You can rely on them for things like emotional comfort, because in the end it's YOUR IMAGINATION that's comforting you, and good for you. The danger comes when you start thinking that they exist outside your head.

"dont you ever feel that doing good is a reward in its self?"

Absolutely. Didn't I say exactly that? I don't need some fairy story about a man getting nailed to something to know that helping other people is good. And like I say - I think that if people need the threat of hell or the promise of heaven to do good, then they're selfish and self-deluding.

"i believe that jesus talks about what some would call karma."

That's good! Now you're getting more Buddhist!

Jesus does NOT, ever, talk about karma. It's a completely different concept, and to be honest you sound to me like you'd be a lot more comfortable with Buddhism than you would with Christianity. It's a much more personal philosophy for one thing. You should find out about it.

"what goes around comes around. people respect you and trust you because you are good."

That's Buddhism right there. It's certainly NOT Christianity. EVERYTHING Christianity is about is what goes around NOT coming around, and I cannot understand how you got that impression.

Look at Christian teachings - and let's just limit it to things Jesus said himself, rather than going on about others such as St. Paul or whoever. In each case, ask this: does the phrase "what goes around comes around" apply?

1. The parable of the good Samaritan. A man is robbed, and two people who should have helped him pass by on the other side. The Samaritan, a man who would be expected to pass by, helps. No mention is made of punishment of the robbers. No mention is made of the punishment of those who passed by. No mention is made of any reward to the Samaritan. What goes around does NOT come around here.

2. The parable of the five talents. The servant who returned his master's money in full and took no risk with it is punished severely. His only crime was not to risk his master's money in a venture of his own. This should be called the parable of the necessity of capitalism - God will punish socialists.

3. The parable of the prodigal son. Respect and work for your father, and you will be shunned. Leave him and go and live it up on your own, and when you return he will kill the fatted calf for you. This is the very opposite of "what goes around comes around" - and this is Jesus talking, remember.

I think you need to examine your beliefs a bit more closely. I think you have an imaginary friend you call Jesus. He sounds nothing like the guy in the Bible...

matthew chapter 7v2: God will be as hard on you as you are on others!He will treat you exactly as you treat them.
Mark ch3v24:Listen carefully to what you hear!The way you treat others will be the way you will be treated_and even worse.
I believe that sounds like karma to me.
What is meant by healthy people do not need a doctor i believe is that jesus came to show sinners a better way to be.
Like i said,I felt the prescence of god and have seen too many miracles now not to believe. the parable of the good samaritan is just that a story to show how to treat everyone even our enemies.
the parable of the five talents is about telling people the good news about jesus.
the prodigal son is about how god rejoices when one of his children return to him. it is to show how important you are to god. may i ask what you believe? bfn t.c ruth

"I believe that sounds like karma to me."

Not quite. Karma is not revenge taken with knowledge by some god who knows when you've been bad or good, like Santa Claus. Karma is the natural law of the universe. What you're talking about is something like a punishing or rewarding parent - it thinks, it reasons. What I'm talking about is more like gravity. It doesn't think or reason, it just is.

"What is meant by healthy people do not need a doctor i believe is that jesus came to show sinners a better way to be."

So did Buddha. Seek the path.

"Like i said,I felt the prescence of god and have seen too many miracles now not to believe."

I can't argue with your sense of the presence of god, because it's something that happened inside your head. That's all...

Miracles? I've watched a man saw himself into two pieces. My brother brought a dead man back to life. Miracles? Or a magic trick and the prompt application of CPR? I know what I believe.

"the parable of the good samaritan is just that a story to show how to treat everyone even our enemies."

But where is the karma?

"the parable of the five talents is about telling people the good news about jesus."

Really? I thought it was about using the gifts God gave you - like your capacity for rational thought and inquiry - and not hiding them away. I always hated that parable anyway.

"the prodigal son is about how god rejoices when one of his children return to him. it is to show how important you are to god."

Well, yeah, but it's pretty much the opposite of karma, isn't it? I mean, if you believe what goes around comes around the parable of the prodigal son would go like this...

A man has two sons. The older works hard, respects his father, marries and settles down. The younger is a layabout, disrespects his father and leaves, has a life of debauchery and sin and never comes home to see his family. Years later, the younger son returns in penitence...

And the father throws a party - he kills the fatted calf, he has music and dancing, and he celebrates his son. His older son - the responsible one. And his younger son, the prodigal son, is not invited. And the misery he has visited upon his family for years now comes back to bite him. And he is in despair.

THAT would be karma. I always hated that parable too - seemed to me that God preferred wasters to workers. Tosser.

"may i ask what you believe?"

How long have you got?

Not in gods, for one thing. Charming stories, but they are just that. I believe people have the capacity for good and evil and that people should do good when they can as much as they can. I believe more people should think about things instead of reacting with their guts and their knowledge of some old book. I believe that when I die I'm gone, so I'm going to do my best to be my best while I'm here because I don't think there's anything else. Tales of the afterlife are a crutch, a helpful story we tell ourselves and each other when death comes to our family or friends. But it's just a story, just like Santa.

It's a somewhat bleak view, I have. But its appeal to me is that everything I know about the universe suggests it is a bleak place. NOTHING I've ever experienced suggests that things as cosy as gods or afterlife exist.

Any other questions?

Could you explain more about karma to me then?
"seek the path" are you telling me i should become a buddhist?
I find it strange that you do not know me or the things i have experienced yet you are telling me i imagined them? you do seem to know a lot about what is in the bible though.May i ask where/when you learnt it? Also could you explain more about the story of five talents to me as we seem to have our wires crossed. The story of the prodigal son shows me that god loves everyone even the worst of sinners.it is the same as the parable of the shepherd who leaves all his sheep to look for the one that is lost. hope this helps. ruth

"Could you explain more about karma to me then?"

I'm not really a good choice of teacher for that. I may be opinionated, but one thing I do know is what I don't know. If you want to know - and do seem to want to know - you should look for the information yourself from a source you trust. Buy a book, say. I wouldn't like to pollute your mind with my inadequate understanding.

"seek the path" are you telling me i should become a buddhist?

Not at all. I'm merely telling you that you are looking for something, but you're not looking in enough places, and perhaps not looking in the right way. "It is like a finger pointing the way to the moon. If you focus on the finger, you miss all that heavenly beauty." I'm not saying to look anywhere in particular, I'm just suggesting you look elsewhere as well. You may not end up thinking Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Baha'i, or whatever, is the way for you, and you may end up rejecting them all or coming back to Christianity. But you will do so with more knowledge. And that's always good, isn't it? Ignorance is not bliss, is it?

"I find it strange that you do not know me or the things i have experienced yet you are telling me i imagined them?"

Not at all. I'm telling you that I've experienced what I might, with a little less thought, have interpreted as miracles. They weren't. And I've known people feel the presence of god. I've felt something like that myself. But on reflection, what is that feeling? I cannot reconcile some vague sensory impression with the presence of something that could create a universe. It just doesn't make sense. If you want to believe that, great. I'll go on believing it's the incredible power of your imagination.

"you do seem to know a lot about what is in the bible though."

A little.

"May i ask where/when you learnt it?"

All my schools were church schools. I went to Sunday school. Bible stories were in my life from as soon as I could read to the day I went to university. I've learned more since, more about the history and background, as kind of a hobby.

"Also could you explain more about the story of five talents to me as we seem to have our wires crossed."

Um... as I remember it (vaguely), it goes something like this:
Rich man goes away on business. Before he goes, he takes five talents (currency), and gives it to three servants with instructions to look after it. I *think* it was two to the first two and one to the third.

So the first one takes his two and buys some seeds, and plants them and grows some fruit, sells the fruit for four talents.
The second takes his two and buys some grapes and makes some wines, which he sells for four.
The third is scared, and takes his coin out to the field and buries it.

The master returns. First servant gives him back the two coins, plus the two he made. Second servant gives him back the two coins, plus the two he made. Third servant gives him back the one coin - and that's all. Master flies into a rage at third servant, calls him wicked and slothful (this is a guy who ran to the field and dug a hole, remember). He tells his servant that he (servant) knows that he (master) reaps where he did not sow. He punishes him.

Now: to me, that is an appalling tale. As it was told to me, the master gave no instructions to invest the cash. He merely said "look after it". The first two servants didn't look after it - they went out and spent it. OK, they did so in such a way that they ended up with more - but what if the wine had spoiled or the seeds failed to grow? The master would then have come home to one, single coin, the one buried in the field. Yet he does not reward the prudent servant - he punishes him, and rewards the risk-takers. A clearer endorsement of the capitalist system is hard to find, and this direct from the mouth of Jesus himself. If you have a different interpretation, I'd be interested to hear it.

"The story of the prodigal son shows me that god loves everyone even the worst of sinners."

Yes, yes, all very nice, except you - and every other Christian I've ever met - never bother to follow that thought through to its logical conclusion.

God loves everyone, even the worst of sinners. Fine. So which would you rather be? The pious, settled, hard-working, nose-to-the-grindstone type who slaves his life away for precious little reward? Or the hard-drinking party animal who lives it up, ignores responsibility, and sins like it's going out of fashion? Because your little story tells me that god loves both equally - doesn't it?

Your story tells me there's no point going to church, healing the sick, giving to the poor etc. Better to live it up while I'm young and have the chance - because God will have me back. Odd message to be sending out, that one, I think. Again, if you think my interpretation is wrong, tell me why.

"it is the same as the parable of the shepherd who leaves all his sheep to look for the one that is lost."

No, it isn't. Sheep don't have volition like humans. And that sheep was, in any case, LOST - it hadn't deliberately gone down to the sheep bar to sh*g a couple of lady sheep and get drunk. That's what the prodigal son was up to, make no mistake.

A specific further note on the five talents parable:

It's Matthew 25:14-30.
I got the numbers of talents wrong, but I was close.

And here, from the KJV, are the words of verse 29:
"For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath."

Isn't this precisely the capitalist system? Jesus's own words - the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer.

That's Christianity, right there, out of the mouth of the very Son of God himself. Like I say - if you've an alternative interpretation of those words, I'd love to hear you rationalise it.

hi minniemouse, hi Member,

Hope you don't mind me popping in here. Mostly I'm just observing.

I will say, minniemouse, that Member does have quite a bit of knowledge about the Bible, and his own interpretation. A lot of it I agree with, meaning his interpretation. I do have my doubts about the Bible other than it being an interesting book of mythology. I don't believe it should be taken literally.

I was raised (so to speak) as an RC but I no longer belong to any sort of religion. Though I believe I 'live in god' it isn't any particular god that I live in, if that makes any sense (it sometimes makes no sense to me!)

I think that Member is only questioning you so that you will question your own beliefs, which is always a good thing to do. One should never believe blindly in anything. He can be quite challenging at times, but don't ever worry about that. If you ever have an honest question he will answer it honestly. And if he doesn't know - like with the karma thing - he will not pretend to know.

Anyhow, nice discussion going on here. I hope you don't mind my intrusion.

az

az,i dont mind a bit.I have seen you in discussion with justin a few times. I do question what i believe all the time because i do not have a denomination so i try to work out for myself what the bible means.
You say you live in god but not a particular god yes,so does that mean you believe there is a god but youre not sure what, in which case you are still searching? Have you ever been on the bbci religion message boards? they are very interesting. I am using a digibox so here n bbci sites are all i can get.neway u t.c ruth

i personally feel that like me, you had christianity shovel fed down your
throat till it made you sick. i am going to try 2 find out more about karma n i will post back here after. Do u ever go on the bbci religion message boards? they are very interesting.
As for me looking for something, i was looking but then i found it. It fits me.
as for the story of the talents my bible calls it the story of the servants it is told twice,in matthew and in luke. both stories differ a little and in luke he says "use this to earn more money till i get back". and i still believe it is about telling people about jesus it has nothing to do with money as i believe you know.

God does love everyone,
For god so loved the world that he sent his only son,that who ever believes in him shall not die but have eternal life.
doesnt god send the sunsets and rain and flowers etc for everyone?
the lost sheep parable means the same as the prodigal son to me in that both were lost but the someone cared where they were and what they were doing and wanted them to come home where they belonged. hope i have answered all your questions?
im still learning myself so i only know what i know as to speak! u t.c bfn ruth

minnie,

No, I'm not searching. I'm mostly still getting to know myself and the god thingy a bit better - I reckon it's a lifelong process to be honest. But mostly a pleasant one. I've never been on the bbci religion message boards, mostly because I have no real interest in religion, except in a mythological sense. But perhaps it would be interesting to check it out.

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Sorry, I guess I wasn't being clear. I meant to say that I don't have a particular god because I don't believe there *is* any one particular god. The god concept I have (or that has me - it's a similar relationship to the one I have with my cats . . . ) doesn't require belief really. To say it *just is* ends up just sounding flaky and wishy washy, but I really have no other words. My god concept is as real as I am. And it includes everything and everyone around me (more flaky talk, sorry!).

I mostly don't even call it a god concept anymore since the word 'god' is so fraught with connotations. So I call it Fred, a rather friendly name, I think. Though today some philosopher friends told me I should start calling it Phred which I think I quite like.

Then again, I can't say that I *believe* in Phred. Do you believe in your hand? In your fingers? They are just there, right? What's to believe? What is to 'worship' except to feel grateful for having them? Am I making any sense?

az

I find it hard to understand your belief system as it is quite different to mine so i can only relate it to beleifs that i know a little about im afraid. Is it like the pagan belief that there are many gods and they are in everything? i think i understand what you mean about belief as i prefer to say "i have faith in god" because i dont believe he exists,i KNOW he exists.Its a feeling i have just like i know love exists because i have felt it. Am i even close?lol
ruth

member, i have been reading more about karma and there are different types so it would seem.it seems that one type is that what you did in a past life affects this one which is different from what i believe but the other type (sorry,i should have written it down)which means that for every action there is a reaction and what you do in this life affects your next one seems quite similar to what i believe. So there you go. bfn ,ruth

minniemouse,

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Erm, well, it isn't any sort of system at all. I think I shouldn't have butted in here. But just one last thing:

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How do you KNOW it is the Christian god? Could it not be that past influences caused you to identify your 'feeling' with that particular god? Just wondering.

az