h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Snailrind, I love the thought that he really was a female buddhist, that would be beautiful!

Still here,

Rather interesting, responses!

Hi Snailrind

As another one time member of "the pack" I thought I'd drop by.

Taking the thrust of your questions directly (I've only speed read the BL), I consider them reasonably fair, and I'd like to try to provide a fair answer.

To summarise, I believe that you are asking why we vigorously debated, possibly goaded and generally attacked the opinions of an individual, which were voiced (at least initially) entirely within that individual's own portion of h2g2, their journal.

I accept that conventionally one shouldn't seek out researchers at their own personal spaces and attempt to goad them. This would be rather bad manners, akin to the knocking on one's door of a Jehovah's Witness or a double glazing salesman. So what made it reasonable for us to attach ourselves, unbidden to this particular researcher's space, particularly when they made it clear that we were unwelcome?

Simply this. They set themself up as a preacher. For a preacher to be just that, people must hear him. Ergo, as no one in particular was invited, we were all invited. It may be indirect, but then your invitation to us to this thread was far from direct. Should we leave? But not only that, conventionally a preacher does not choose his congregation; he gets to preach to whomever happens to turn up.

Then, given that if not all, at least most of what this particular researcher posted was considered to be aberrant, misguided or at least woefully misinformed, by again if not all, the majority of those who listened, it would be unreasonable for us to let it pass without comment, less some unsuspecting passerby were to mistake this preacher's sermonising for fact or evidence and our silence as endorsement. As Voltaire once said, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

Furthermore, since even those portions of this particular preacher's sermons that purported to quote the word of god, were to a significant degree fabricated by the said preacher, through loose or wholly inaccurate interpretation, this particular preacher did no service to the deity that he actually claimed to represent. If I remember correctly, some of those engaged in the debate also claimed to be christians.

For example, this preacher judged the actions of others while holding himself above their judgement for his own past actions, which in some cases and in some cultures would be considered more heinous than those he condemned.

It may be the case that I had a hand in JtP's decision to leave, having gone so far as to suggest that Justin considered himself to be no less important a figure to christianity than one of the apostles and was therefore worthy of nothing less than a gospel of his own. On the other hand it may be (and probably is) the case that Justin finally overstepped the mark by venturing into Ask h2g2. This placed his views firmly and unequivocably within the public domain and earned strong condemnation from even more researchers, who unsurprisingly held fairly common ground with the members of the "pack".

Whatever the cause of his departure, it is a sad loss for both h2g2 as a whole and for Justin.

Most if not all of the researchers who engaged with Justin came to understand that Justin was a troubled man. It became clear through conversing with Justin, that his past was a great source of pain that he hid from in his faith. Unfortunately his flawed and limited interpretation of the source of his faith, the bible, led him to believe most strongly that that he need do nothing to face his past.

Some of us suggested to Justin either directly or indirectly that he should seek help. Math was perhaps Justin's best friend here on h2g2 as he went further than the rest of us to offer Justin his hand in both friendship and support.

However not one of us, even Hoo, would actively seek to evict Justin from h2g2. And not one of us could allow Justin to be silenced; again as Voltaire said, "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it."

Does that give you a view on why we engaged in seemingly pointless and occasionally antagonistic debate?

Madent

Hi SR ,

"For all anyone knows, he's a female Buddhist who was having a laugh."

Hmm... knowing a few female Buddhists as i do I can assure you that they would not imitate someone in such a state of suffering or do anything to cause suffering or distress to others.

That said, some of Justin's early friends were given a link to his own webpage. In this is not only shared the sad details of his life's story but also a photograph. It was sufficient to convince me that he was exactly who he said he was.

Unlike some of my good friends here I am happy to converse about our times with Justin. I am starting to understand what you are trying to accomplish and it also allows me the chance to examine again, and in more detail, how I treated him.

Maybe if he returns, as oft times before, he will read this and finally accept that there are those amongst us who did, to a degreee, respect him and would be his friend.

It is a terrible thing to believe that the world around you is evil, that the servants of Satan are plotting around every corner to deceive and destroy you, and that most people you meet are condemned to an eternity in the Lake of Fire. This is the world he inhabits and it is one we hoped to lead him from, though not from his faith.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

It has been hinted at many times on various posts that I have read, that something awful happened to Justin to make him this way...

Did he ever post it on a conversation forum, or was it private?

And, if it wasn't private, what on earth was it that made him so..ummm..whats the word..evangelistical?

Am I being rude in probing too much do you think on a public conversation forum? Being as I have never met the guy is it ok for me to ask, because I can't ask the J in person? I would most certainly ask him too, if he gave me the time of day.

Lots of awful things happen to people which affects them in different ways depending on the type of person you have grown to be in your surroundings, I am simply curious.

I am just happy to converse

Oh, and I love that quote, "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

"To summarise, I believe that you are asking why we vigorously debated,
possibly goaded and generally attacked the opinions of an individual, which
were voiced (at least initially) entirely within that individual's own portion
of h2g2, their journal."

Yup--thank you, Madent; that's a good summary of what I'm saying.

I'm pleased that so many of you have come forward to explain your motivations, because it has helped me to understand that, in general, people were not out for Justin's blood after all. But I wish to reiterate that I'm not setting myself up as some kind of judge and jury, so if people prefer to keep their opinions to themselves, that is their prerogative.

"your invitation to us to this thread was far from direct. Should we leave?"

No, please stay!
I did post an overt invitation on Justin's space, but I don't think many people have seen it. Probably just as well, considering what I said. My sense of humour is sometimes obscure, and if that post were taken literally, it might have caused a lot of offense. As it possibly has, in one case....

Madent, you put forward your points clearly and compellingly. Some of what you say has been said by others on this thread. I agree with what you say about preachers and congregations--in fact, I agree with pretty much everything in your post. And I'm delighted that you are quoting Voltaire. I don't think your comment to Justin was particularly offensive: perhaps he *should* write his own gospel--why not? Your post does raise one question, though, which I hope you will not mind answering:

"less some unsuspecting passerby were to mistake this preacher's sermonising for fact or evidence and our silence as endorsement."

This is a concern held by many--but are there really people out there who would believe and follow Justin based on his sermons?

A final on your post:

"since even those portions of this particular preacher's
sermons that purported to quote the word of god, were to a significant
degree fabricated by the said preacher, through loose or wholly inaccurate interpretation"

My view is that this is standard practice among preachers. The Bible has been translated and rewritten so many times, with books being added, embellished, censored, and removed over the centuries, that all we are left with is interpretations. I have yet to meet two Christians who believe in exactly the same things.


Matholwch, I used women and Buddhists as an example: I don't really think it's likely that Justin is either--I'm just pointing out that the internet allows everyone to put forward any image of themselves they like.

Got to cook dinner now--speak to you again soon.

Thanks SR

I'd like to pick up on a couple of your points.

First, "are there really people out there who would believe and follow Justin based on his sermons?"

Who knows, but sadly history is littered with examples of insane ideas being accepted by large numbers of people, simply because there was no opposition or alternative to them even though they are only truly believed by a minority. The "final solution" was a prime example and look at the result, 6 million dead with barely an outcry.

So do we want people to believe that bigotry is acceptable because "it is written"?

Second, I said, "(his) sermons ... were to a significant degree fabricated", to which you replied "this is standard practice among preachers".

Of course it is, but that doesn't make it acceptable. Indeed, it a practice followed by everyone when they want to present an argument and they need something to back it up. They pick the "facts" to suit. The response is clear, de-bunk it, otherwise the faulty interpretation then becomes "written".

Madent

Madent, I take your points.

It seemed to me at first that Justin is less bigoted than he comes across. When castigating others, he did so in the third person, and he spoke politely and graciously to those who were polite to him... but I admit, he displayed no sign of actual respect for them.

Vix, I'm sorry, but I don't know exactly what the circumstances were behind Justin's dramatic conversion. He said the details were on his website, but I didn't get round to visiting it before he upped sticks. Something to do with lustfulness, I think.

Thinking back, the only extremist Christian I've known personally was wracked with guilt about getting a girl pregnant and then allowing her to have an abortion; during his despair, he was taken under the wing of an extreme evangelist church, who forgave him and purged his sins. I imagine there are as many reasons for conversion as there are converts, though.

Thanks SR

Ahhh..

Well after extensive browsing found the site I was looking for...I thought you might be interested to read the whole text SR..

*dumps link on floor*

http://www.newtestamentpattern.net/testimonies/justinhughes

<>

From reading his testimonial, if he contains no respect for himself then it must be impossible to have any respect for others, but to remain polite is probably easy, being as it is a social grace that can be learned as a facade. Respect is not something easy to portray with genuiness if not genuine? That's what I think....my way of thinking is adaptable to reasonable plausable arguements against.

Ahh dunno, but like you SR, the more I have read and peoples responses to his, the more I am interested in this personality and the persona that were as equally curious about him. I just regret that I went in head first and baited him so to speak - but then again I wasn't the only one.

There are many interesting conversations but if I were to put them in here as ones I have read and found interesting I am afraid that some might think I am going out of my way to make others look daft or were persecuting them in particular in some way...so shall leave that bone of contention alone!

His testimonial is chillingly friendly and benign-looking. And it looks ghost-written, unless his style has changed over time.

I take back my skepticism about people being likely to be inspired by him.

Got to go away and think....

Perhaps now SR you understand my approach to Justin and my deeply held belief that he needs healing.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

For the third time, Matholwch: yes, I understand your motives and admire your intentions. I am sorry if I have offended you. I *never* thought *you* were being vindictive towards Justin: I just wondered why you were bothering to try to help someone who didn't want your help and who didn't trust your pagan outlook. Now I know. And, having finally seen his extremely disturbing website, I wish you all the best.

Snailrind

You have never offended me .

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

I thought he was a nasty person who upset a lot of people and enjoyed creating dissent. I felt vindictive towards him and would have partied if he had been banned.

Just thought I should be truthful. I am not part of this love-in about him. I offered the hand of friendship myself and was told I was a troll and he refused to answer any of my postings anymore.

Maybe he was very confused and emotionally/mentally ill and needed help. But funnily enough so am I, and didn't need hate spewed all over my journal from such a nasty person.

In fact its due to people like him that I do not keep my journal anymore and have lost my support network. Well done Justin, your hate managed to breed and create a bit more. What a good thing to bring into the world. When I had my most recent depressive/suicidal phase, I didn't post a thing about it here and got no help, but got through anyway eventually. Before it would have been different though, I would have had a lot of caring people help me get through it a lot quicker.

Sorry to go on about all this in your journal Snailrind, just wanted to show I am not one of those who always cared about him. Tried once, and gave up. Learnt from him not to trust people or be honest about your own pain anymore.

Kaz

I would like to see your journal started up again I got quite a lot of support from your health thread.

Nothing to apologise for being truthful and honest about the way you feel. At least I think so.

I appreciate your bravery, Kaz, in speaking your mind about this. I'm out of time on this computer now, but in short, I see what you're saying and will try to reply properly another time.

If a cat scratched and bit you nastily - would that make you wary of all cats and give up stroking them all together and enjoying their company? For some people this would be true. If you fell of a horse, would you get back on again?

People are animals too, and no two people are the same, I used to prefer animals to human contact but now have revised my opinion somewhat, don't let the bad ones make you miss out on stuff, Kaz.

I'm sure you know that...I just needed to say it, please don't be offended

I don't mean to belittle your experience in any way at all, Kaz.

Sigh, I really do try to think before I post, but get too eager sometimes and should really think a little more....