h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Back again.

First I'd like to say that you, like Justin, are an entertaining writer with your own special style. I take particular pleasure in reading your poetry, and that recent one with the atheist in the final stanza--class. There's a lot of druids round my way, and they all have a wacky sense of humour, a profound love of nature, and they win the pub quiz every damn week. I imagine if you met them, you'd get along like a grove on fire. (Assuming you're not already one of them.)

Anyway. Your posts to Justin mystified me. You'd obviously known him a long time and I could see you considered him a friend, but the fact that he had no interest in discussing theology with you made me wonder why you persisted, polite though you were to him. Your potted history of the friendship means I am now clearer on your reasons.

"By now he was anathematizing many of his old foes and thus open discussion with him became impossible. Thus I took on the task of giving an alternative viewpoint to each of his hate/fear-filled sermons. I continued on this tack until he finally fled in March."

This is emerging as people's primary reason for countering the things he says. Were you doing this for Justin, or for people who might happen upon his writings? If for the latter, how likely is it that anyone would have gone along with it for long anyway, considering how much effort Justin put(s) into alienating others? I repeat Noggin's observation: "Justin was usually in a minority of one."

"much of which helped us understand why he was as he was."

This is the most compelling thing about Justin. How does a person become to disconnected from the rest of humanity? How do they become so angry, so afraid? There is an urge to help, to ease his burden, to make him see the light--but, as I know from my own 'condition' (CFS/ME), this can all too often lead to help of an ignorant and presumptious kind.

I mentioned having a RL friend who was a bit like Justin (only pagan). In his case, the only thing that seemed to help was to stick around, be consistent, and provide help when he asked for it. Sadly, he suffered a major emotional setback after being incarcerated in an institution run by religious control freaks masquerading as psychologists. But I'm rambling now. Over to someone else.

mark

Hi Snailrind

As you have a few druid friends you can probably answer most of your questions yourself . No? Alright I'll give it a go...

Justin was one of those people you meet where you realise that behind the bluster and bigotry there is still the core of a decent human being. Like many of us he made a mistake, one he felt was unforgiveable. His way of coping with that was to attempt to find redemption, which he did through his faith.

Now I have no major problems with christianity. For many it can give comfort and inspiration. But like many other religions, even mine, it has its extreme fringes, and Justin seems to have fallen in with these.

Although some people felt that I was trying to destroy his faith they were quite wrong. I was trying to hold open a door that he might have an exit strategy should his faith fail.

Even after he anathematized me I stayed constant. I answered each of his extreme statements so that he could see an alternative was there. I had no real expectation that I could succeed, but I was there anyway.

Perhaps I was wrong, but no true druid could walk past such pain and suffering without at least holding out their hand.

I hope that this explains my motivations. I am happy to discuss this futher if you wish.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

Hengeware Analyst.

Math, I find this thread entirely insulting to both Justin and those who have been considered to be 'the pack'.

I will always speak to Justin directly, as I always did. I will not talk 'about' him here, turning him into some sort of sport, some sort of - what? - weirdo concept? that others are curious about? to amuse them or satisfy their curiosity?

I don't care a bit if people have misread my postings to Justin. But they were all made to him. If Justin wants to misread me then that is up to him. If others choose to do so, then I can only wonder why they have nothing better to do.

Why do they even care about Justin?

You and I, Math, and others, actually do care about Justin. And we have spent a lot of time talking to him. I will not become a part of turning Justin into some sort of hootoo 'oh let's get an interesting thread going' thing.

I don't like this thread one little bit. I don't like what it is trying to do to Justin.

az

Matholwch, I see what you are saying. You're obviously a compassionate person and a good friend to have around. Thank you for clarifying your position to me.

I hope that my last post didn't lead you to think I was taking a pot shot at pagans--I was speaking fondly of those I had met.

Azahar, I will sleep on what you have said and let you know my response next time I'm on h2g2.

I find this thread interesting.

I don't think its trying to do anything to Justin, except examine beliefs and responses from hootoo members, in a friendly way.

Don't we do that all time in life - I for example like to read about my favourite stars, singers and interviews with favourite authors and what they said to whom and why..and what their response was. I also admit, I like gossip..*ahem* Reviews are wonderful in any shape or form.

I did try to get a response out of the J, just to see what he had to say about my evilness, and I admit, I hadn't really thought my reasons thro and wished I hadn't now...but thats neither here nor there. I'm trying hard not to be so implusive now.

What I am floundering around and trying to say, is that in short Justin seems to have been an intriguing enigma on here, and attracted many intelligent knowledgable people.

Just droppin' in (I skipped the middle pages) to add my assurances of niceties to Justin to what I hope are many others. Don't know if Matholwch's dropped in or not, but he's a very good example of a very nice person who was very nice to J.

Why thank you Mal for that unsolicited comment . I have dropped in and tried to help Snailrind understand some of what went on with Justin.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

Not even a pretty face...

My pleasure, friend.
Also, I suspect that the reason he is not to be found on any pages outside his personal space is that he unsubscribed from many of them in anger.

'I only saw one thread not started on his space which contained a post from Justin, and here he expressed heartfelt sympathy about someone's troubles. This sympathy was immediately rebuffed, to the delight of everyone on that particular thread.'

This happened to me, how nice of you to bring it up to try to make me look bad. Yes he posted to me, when I had stuff going on, I told him to go away. If I am to receive sympathy, I like it to be honest. To accept sympathy from him, is not honest. I am pagan and therefore in his eyes worthy of burning in hell, and as for his views of feminists, gay men and women and many other people...

I am not in the habit of making friends with someone who thinks most of mine deserve a painful death, or deliberately peddles hate and evil to cause pain to innocent people. Why should I have been nice to him?

As for Blair, it can't be any worse than the things I've written or seen written about the oligarchy in the White House.

And the pope comments, well, I suspect a lot of Catholics would see that as an attack on their religion. Still, I admit that these aren't personal attacks on other researchers.



"Agreed. As I said before, it would be naive not to expect criticism when posting on a public site. But I stand by his right to stick to his views without justifying them. There are others on this site who take particular political standpoints, or eat only certain types of food, without any justification. People don't continuously demand that *they* explain themselves."

Yes, but I also stand by my right to say that his views seem to be a bit irrational and that I haven't seen any attempt to back them up with real logic made here or elsewhere.



"Another reason why I never tried to speak to Justin was in case I became a regular yikes victim. "

I just learned to phrase everything I said in ways that the moderators couldn't claim violated the house rules--I never said I agreed with the things I was suggesting, for one thing.

"It also might have been entirely possible that the J himself is a very quiet broody person in RL and would never be quite as strongly 'vocal' as what he was here."

Possible, although I've heard claims from Mal, among others, that he actually did the same sort of things in real life. I don't remember what Justin said on the matter.

JUSTIN, if you're reading this, I don't suppose you'd be willing to answer for your self--do you preach in real life the same way you do on the guide? I'd guess yes from what you've said, but I don't remember if you said anything on the matter.

"I don't like this thread one little bit. I don't like what it is trying to do to Justin. "

I see your point, and sort of agree with it. However, I think that, since it exists, it needs to be responded to. It would be in a sence worse to let it continue without any comment from those who spoke with Justin regularly. Still, if Malth and Noggin are willing to do that, then there is no need for me to be here.

Pass me a shovel, I'll dig myself in a bit deeper.

"Why should I have been nice to him?"

I don't know about "should have", but personally I like to acknowledge and reward positive, compassionate behaviour, especially from those who don't display it much. I genuinely thought his sympathy was of the honest variety, because he didn't say anything about God or Hell to you. Was I wrong about this?

Azahar, regarding post 44, I left a link to this journal entry on Justin's page in case he comes back; I do not want him to think this is being said behind his back. But this entry's main subject is you (plural), not Justin. You are the people I am trying to understand. Not Justin.

"Why do they even care about Justin?"

This question implies that you would pass by a suffering being if you did not know them personally. I know you are not like this, though: I recall reading your journal and being charmed by the help you gave to those poor street cats.

"You and I, Math, and others, actually do care about Justin."

Aw, hell, I'm just wrong, wrong, wrong, okay?

I'll get my coat....

I don't see where you've anywhere here, SR.

I didn't regard his behaviour as 'positive, compassionate behaviour', he too often showed hate, a wish for people to suffer, a wish for people to not exist anymore, supreme arrogance and he genuinely tried to cause division, hurt and upset. I didn't consider any of that worthy of reward. However I did recognise he was probably just trying to get a foothold into my journal so he could preach at me.

"he was probably just trying to get a foothold into my journal so he could preach at me."

Obviously a valid concern considering his attitudes, but I thought that wasn't his style - ?

<>

You never knew this person and so could have no idea what his 'style' was.

<>

Nothing better to do?

Anyhow, you are not trying to understand us. You have already judged 'us' as being something you cannot understand. And then you toss out pathetic compliments like you are sure I am otherwise a nice person because of how I treat cats.

<>

You know I am not like what? You don't know me at all. You have passed judgement on various people including myself and now expect us to defend ourselves based on your opinion of us? Get real.

I can only imagine that this nasty parlour game of yours somehow makes you feel self-important. Well, have fun.

az

"don't see where you've anywhere here, SR."

Making Kaz look like a git. It was harsh, and Kaz did not deserve it. I had forgotten the thread and the context when I made the comment about Justin's sympathy being rebuffed. I am sorry, Kaz. It was stupid of me.

"...turning him into some sort of sport...."
"...people who think that baiting those who they feel once baited 'poor ickle Justin' is somehow something clever to do...."
"You have passed judgement on various people including myself and now expect us to defend ourselves based on your opinion of us? Get real. I can only imagine that this nasty parlour game of yours somehow makes you feel self-important."

For someone who disapproves of judgementalism and assumptions, azahar, you are jumping to a lot of conclusions about my motives and the kind of person I am. For someone who says it's not okay to call people to account, you have been doing a great deal of this on Justin's space and now on mine. (Not that I mind you calling me to account, but it would be more productive if you asked me questions or provided some foundation for your abuse.)

"You never knew this person and so could have no idea what his 'style' was."

Hence my question.
The assumption behind it is based on the fact that you yourself, azahar, said Justin's preachings occurred in his journal entries and on 'ask h2g2'. Should I not trust what you tell me? Perhaps not: it is odd that you think you know him any better than I do, since his space is there for us all to see. For all anyone knows, he's a female Buddhist who was having a laugh.

"Nothing better to do?"

Correct. I don't view defending someone as a waste of my time.
Besides--I don't have a life.

I am sorry that someone felt it necessary to leave h2g2, especially since I thought the reason might be that he was hounded out. It seemed unfair, and sad that his 'friends' list was empty. I have since altered my view, and agree that people have many reasons for leaving. I also now understand that there are people who have consistently shown friendship to the guy. There is also the possibility that he treated some hootooers dreadfully and deserved all he got.

"Just about everything Justin ever posted was personally offensive."
"... I... actually do care about Justin."

How do you treat your enemies?

"You have already judged 'us' as being something you cannot understand."

Almost. I've judged your *behaviour* as being something I *don't yet* understand.

I was just writing down my thoughts and impressions in a journal entry. I wasn't particularly looking for an argument, but I wanted to ensure that those in the habit of challenging Justin knew what I was saying about them, in case they wanted to challenge or yikes me. You are still welcome to do either.

Some people have offered explanations and justifications; this is interesting and enlightening, but it wasn't my intention to demand anything like this. I just don't want to talk behind your backs.

"And then you toss out pathetic compliments like you are sure I am otherwise a nice person because of how I treat cats."

I *am* charmed by the concern you show for cats. I've no idea what kind of person you really are, nor whether we'd get on in real life. But I respect your respect for cats. To me, that's a big thing. What you think of this doesn't alter the fact. Sorry.

I'd like to clarify a point I made earlier. Just because I don't like some of the ways in which Justin has been treated, does *not* mean I think *anyone* doing these things is a bad person. I don't believe in "bad people". I do believe in misunderstandings and conflicts of interest.