h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

You have to take exams to get into secondary school? Is that a special case? In the US people mainly go to the school in their district, unless they take a test to get into a special "magnet" school (i arrived in the middle of high school so it was too late to take this test).

I have no comment on US history other than it sucks.

*Do some courses require AP tests?*

AP tests are completely optional but they look good and you might get credit. The universities always have an entry-level course at the college that you can take to get to the courses with prerequisites.

*Cool. Although I feel the need to hide in the face of another artist - my sister was over yeasterday and I'm quite jealous of her artistic talent where I have none.*

Define "artistic talent."

<< You have to take exams to get into secondary school? Is that a special case? ... >>

Yeah. Grammar schools tend to use enterance exams and other schools generally don't. Some grammar schools also require you to pay - but I (and by "I" I mean my parents) couldn't afford that. Theres still a bit of a debate over here about grammar schools - whether taking intelligent kids and better teacher out of normal schools makes them worse off etc.

<< I have no comment on US history other than it sucks. >>

Well of course it does - you haven't been around long enough to have interesting bits in your history. :P

<< AP tests are completely optional but they look good and you might get credit. The universities always have an entry-level course at the college that you can take to get to the courses with prerequisites. >>

I think I'm getting confused here. I thought collages and universities were the same thing in America.

<< Define "artistic talent." >>

Artistic talent requires 2 things
(1) To be able to come up with an idea in your head which would be considered art. This can be acheived just by looking at something and going "pretty"
(2) The ability to get from that to physical reperesentation which would be considered art (Note this is not always the same as the idea you started out with).

The definiation of what is considered art constantly fluctuates. I would say it's art when you are trying to get a message across using anything other than reasoning - books, films and comic strips are art to me. Some people would say it's art if it appears in a gallery in which case they are not. Of course my definition may be flawed in that meaning is not the only thing that art can portray - perhaps inspiring emotion is more important?

However when I said it what I meant to say (notice this is rarely similar to what I actually say) was that I am jealous of people who can draw something such that I can tell what the image is supposed to be. I have no talent in this area, I might on the other hand write a book one day.

*Well of course it does - you haven't been around long enough to have interesting bits in your history. :P*

well geez, how long does it take?

*I think I'm getting confused here. I thought collages and universities were the same thing in America.*

I was using the words interchangeably as we do, but a college (by itself) is smaller and usually focuses on liberal arts, whereas a university may have many colleges within it. So my degree is from Carnegie Mellon University, Mellon College of Science.

Art doesn't have to be made with your hands, even visual art. There's photography and graphic art.... Being able to draw is overrated, ideas are important.

<< well geez, how long does it take? >>

Well lets see. We had some good bits between 500AD and 1000AD so I guess somewhere between 1000 and 1500 years. Aww Americas such a young nation *Pats it on the head*

Ok I'll stop joking about this, I can take things too far sometimes.

<< I was using the words interchangeably as we do, but a college (by itself) is smaller and usually focuses on liberal arts, whereas a university may have many colleges within it. So my degree is from Carnegie Mellon University, Mellon College of Science. >>

ok, thanks for clearing that up.

<< Art doesn't have to be made with your hands, even visual art. There's photography and graphic art.... Being able to draw is overrated, ideas are important. >>

The jokes that are made about the photos I took at my moms wedding...and my graphic art isn't any better. It's annoying because I have ideas in my head I just can't get them down. Part of the problem is probably that I can get impatient, and I don't think any form of art is suited to impatient people.

Well there's the kind where you just throw paint at the canvas....

You mentioned that you don't drink, right? Why is that? I had the overall impression that people drink more in europe.

True. But remember I think art needs to have meaning and generally the throwing paint at canvas meaning is "Hahahahaha I can't belive I get paid to do this. Suckers!" which is not one I wish to endorse.

People drink more in Europe. We also have a higher alcohol tolerance. This is because our ancestors were stupid. If you trace back far enough you come to a point where you can choose from dirty water or alcohol for your drinks. Those who chose the water generally died, those who chose the alcohol generally didn't. As such our society evolved around pubs etc. because those who considered these places important lived longer, had more kids etc.

In other parts of the world they found out that you can boil water to purify it.

This reminds me of another thing for some reason.

Objective: Get into space and write reports on, I dunno, vacumes.

Problem: Pens to not write in space.

American Solution: Spend tens of thousands of dollars, your cheif researchers time to devloping a pen that has a special mechanism allowing it to write in space. Then produce about 10 of them and call it a day.

Russian Solution: Use a pencil.

The reason that I do not drink is hard to identify because there are so many.

It costs lots of money which is bad
It tastes horrible which is bad
It makes me act atrociously which is bad
It makes me spill my secrets which is bad
It makes me spill other peoples secrets which is worse than bad
It makes me attempt to do things that I cannot do which is bad
It makes me ill every time (Some allergy maybe) which is bad
It is addictive, making one do all of the bad things over and over

On the plus side.

Um. Not sure. Sometimes it looks pretty?

Wow, did that space pen really cost tens of thousands of dollars?

A culture centered around pubs sounds better than our culture. I'm trying to think of why this is. What's our culture centered around, malls? They haven't been around long enough.... I hope it's not "the home"... Anyway, I don't have to live with it. I just don't like how Americans look down at the class of people that drink or smoke or whatever. Drinking at least lets you try out what it would be like to be different from the way you normally are, rather than experiencing only one thing and as a result claiming it's the best way to be and that everyone else should be that way as well. In particular, it makes you less inhibited, and Americans are so freaking inhibited, but then it's been quite a while since I've lived overseas (at which point I was the inhibited one, I was probably the only American at my school who didn't drink in 10th grade as they will cheerfully serve anyone alcohol in Beijing), so I might think that about people anywhere at this point.

I was out with a bunch of people and this one old British guy with what I would call a cockney accent, although maybe that's not exactly right, went through at least 10 beers while I was there, and I'm sure he kept drinking like that all night. That must cost a fortune, and he had to go to work the next day. My roommate works with him, so I know that he came in all hung over and was then dragging some of the same people out to the bar when he was leaving (I say dragging because the Americans are not used to this craziness).

<< Wow, did that space pen really cost tens of thousands of dollars? >>

In R&D yes. It only costs a few hundred, maybe a grand, to produce each one now they know how.

<< A culture centered around pubs sounds better than our culture. I'm trying to think of why this is. What's our culture centered around, malls? They haven't been around long enough.... I hope it's not "the home"... >>

Hypothetically it should be the home. Or maybe the military. Wait its the farms. I don't know - you go over from a multitude of countries, kill everyone, settle down, build houses, decide you don't like being ruled by those countries, kill them too, then rebuild, get harrassed by the indigionous people you didn't kill the first time so kill them again. Rebuild. Attack yourselves. Rebuild again. Make a lot of money. Lose a lot of money. Say there too much killing and your not getting involved again. Soddit join in WW1 anyway and kill some people. Say this time your really not getting involved. Soddit join in WW2 as well. I don't know my American history well enough to say what it would have evolved around. Probably not the military, your history has less killing than ours.

<< Anyway, I don't have to live with it. I just don't like how Americans look down at the class of people that drink or smoke or whatever. >>

I must admit I do this to our generation. I have every sympathy for people of older generations who were told that it was good for their health and then got addicted. But anywone who buys a product marked "Warning may cause unexpected death" and tries it seems to have a screw loose. I am beginning to belive that arsenic, properly marketed, could be a big hit. People would try it just because it's dangerous and their mates would dare them.

<< Drinking at least lets you try out what it would be like to be different from the way you normally are, rather than experiencing only one thing and as a result claiming it's the best way to be and that everyone else should be that way as well. In particular, it makes you less inhibited, and Americans are so freaking inhibited, >>

I thought thats what we're famous for? You can lose your inhibitions without resorting to drink. Start challanging random people in the park to games of chess. Then expand your operation into their homes. At that point you won't have a lot of inhibitions left. It does annoy me that people seem to have an inbuilt inhabition about talking to strangers. What else are you going to do on the bus? Your not even reading that paper - look its upside down.

<< but then it's been quite a while since I've lived overseas (at which point I was the inhibited one, I was probably the only American at my school who didn't drink in 10th grade as they will cheerfully serve anyone alcohol in Beijing), so I might think that about people anywhere at this point. >>

I don't know what the culture is in Beijing so I couldn't comment.

<< I was out with a bunch of people and this one old British guy with what I would call a cockney accent, although maybe that's not exactly right, went through at least 10 beers while I was there, and I'm sure he kept drinking like that all night. That must cost a fortune, and he had to go to work the next day. >>

10:1 odds he didn't. I know people like that, most of us can't manage it though. Theres also a special breed of beer snob who will only drink real ale, none of this common muck. For examples see my old housemate, Vip's personal space. (Lovely gal but never did manage to persuade me about real ale)

<< My roommate works with him, so I know that he came in all hung over >>

Damn I lost that bet then.

<< and was then dragging some of the same people out to the bar when he was leaving (I say dragging because the Americans are not used to this craziness). >>

But thats what we do - finish work? goto pub! Unless your me or highly religious.

I just watched an episode of the west wing. At one point one of the characters talks about the space pen and they say it costs millions - that programms normally well researched so I could have been wrong with tens of thousands.

*Probably not the military, your history has less killing than ours.*

It's not the military. That little gem is just a recurring fad like now.

*I have every sympathy for people of older generations who were told that it was good for their health and then got addicted. But anywone who buys a product marked "Warning may cause unexpected death" and tries it seems to have a screw loose.*

Well, I have every sympathy for people who try something and don't like it. But the people, at least in this country, who are against these things are at least as influenced by campaigning as people who try them. Especially with the drinking age being so high (and people taking it so seriously), trying alcohol for the first time is something many people never get to before their heads are filled with targeted misconceptions and they get all preachy over something they absolutely refuse to try once. It's like belonging to a political party and only listening to your own speeches and news sources. The campaigns would have you believe that it's all peer pressure that causes it, but now I realize that people often start drinking socially because they can't deal with social anxiety, and smoking because they can't deal with stress. Then the people who are against it get to go on doing dangerous things for their health that are less "morally" charged, like not wearing a seatbelt, eating badly (giving themselves adult onset diabetes and heart failure), not exercising, talking on the cell phone while they're driving, or whatever, also because they have trouble dealing with things. Surely it's better to practice moderation in everything, and still get to *try* things to see if you care about the fuss at all.

*But thats what we do - finish work? goto pub! Unless your me or highly religious.*

What do you do then?

<< *Probably not the military, your history has less killing than ours.*

It's not the military. That little gem is just a recurring fad like now. >>

It does feel that way sometimes. It seems every so many years everyone feels the need to go to war and then calm down for another few years.

<< Well, I have every sympathy for people who try something and don't like it. But the people, at least in this country, who are against these things are at least as influenced by campaigning as people who try them. >>

Maybe, but the campaigning for it uses semi-naked women, beach houses and sports cars wheras the campaigning against it uses stastical information and chemical research. I know which I'm inclined to trust. (n.b. I did try it btw, as far as I can tell this is an indication that I was an idiot when younger)

<< Especially with the drinking age being so high (and people taking it so seriously), >>

Is it taken seriously over there? It's 18 here (Is it 21 there?) and most people have their first drink at 14/15.

<< trying alcohol for the first time is something many people never get to before their heads are filled with targeted misconceptions and they get all preachy over something they absolutely refuse to try once. >>

I've advised someone not to burn down a building, but I've never tried burning down a building. Was that wrong of me?

<< It's like belonging to a political party and only listening to your own speeches and news sources. >>

Isn't it possible to disagree with a political parties ideas without having to join them and living life they way they would try to run it? I tend to have a go at the BNP (British Nationalist Party, fringe party, highly racist, occasioanlly gets a seat) but I've never tried persecuting everyone with a different skin colour to me. Maybe I'd enjoy it?

<< The campaigns would have you believe that it's all peer pressure that causes it, but now I realize that people often start drinking socially because they can't deal with social anxiety, and smoking because they can't deal with stress. >>

FFS you studied psychology - do you really advocate alcohol and cigarettes as a way of dealing with stress?

<< Then the people who are against it get to go on doing dangerous things for their health that are less "morally" charged, like not wearing a seatbelt, eating badly (giving themselves adult onset diabetes and heart failure), not exercising, >>

I don't see these examples as applicable for the simple reason that they do not affect other people. I think that people can risk themselves however they like. However I have know someone who was abused by his drunk parents. I personally deal with smoke very badly, I once ended up coughing up bile on the street because someone exhaled into my face.

<< talking on the cell phone while they're driving, or whatever, >>

This is a fair comparison and In have a problem with it too. I really wish that people who crashed because they were talking on a cell phone while driving would crash into eachother. Sadly that rarely happens.

<< also because they have trouble dealing with things. >>

This isn't a very good arguement. Person X belives Y. Person X belives Z. Z is wrong. Everything person X belives is wrong. Therefore Y is wrong. Theres a logical flaw in there somewhere - can you see it?

Surely it's better to practice moderation in everything, and still get to *try* things to see if you care about the fuss at all. >>

Have you tried jumping off a cliff recently? No? Because the available evidence suggests you wouldn't survive the process?

<< *But thats what we do - finish work? goto pub! Unless your me or highly religious.*

What do you do then? >>

I try not to do any work in the first place. Failing that (sometimes I need money or the uni say they won't give me a degree if I don't ) I tend to go play - I like games of most types, preferably with a friend. Or maybe post on livejournal or hootoo. There are plenty of non-drinking related activities.

Oi. I'm not making a relativist argument. Yes, I think that smoking and drinking can be good ways to deal with stress. Just because they aren't always good ways does not mean that they never are. And while jumping off a cliff has no perceivable benefit, smoking and drinking can have (in my opinion) this benefit, which is to be weighed against the risks, just as getting in a car is a decision based on dangers and benefits. People who never try them are basically told that there are no benefits and they have no way of finding out otherwise.

Actually, I do know a guy who cliff-jumps (into the ocean). One of his many risk-taking/thrill-seeking tendencies. I've never tried it, so whatever benefit he feels lies in that activity is most accessible to me through *asking* him.

<< Oi. I'm not making a relativist argument. >>
'k

<< Yes, I think that smoking and drinking can be good ways to deal with stress. Just because they aren't always good ways does not mean that they never are. >>

True, but there are other ways of dealing with stress that are less damaging. Surely you choose the best means to an end, not the first one which looks attractive. Besides doesn't it seem wrong to you that you engage in activities that can harm others for your own benefit? At least with your friend who goes cliff jumping he doesn't risk taking anyone else with him.

<< And while jumping off a cliff has no perceivable benefit, smoking and drinking can have (in my opinion) this benefit, which is to be weighed against the risks, just as getting in a car is a decision based on dangers and benefits. >>

True again, but I can't think of any math that makes the cost-benefit worth it unless you are already addicted. Especailly when all of the benefits can be replicated without these substances.

<< People who never try them are basically told that there are no benefits and they have no way of finding out otherwise. >>

That is a shame, people should make informed decisions, but that doesn't mean they have to try everything before making any decisions. If you did insist on doing things that way then you would never get past the "what should I try first" decision.

<< Actually, I do know a guy who cliff-jumps (into the ocean). One of his many risk-taking/thrill-seeking tendencies. >>

Yup - the thrill you get from things varies from person to person, I find rockclimbing exciting, I know people who find anything more than chess too intense and people who find anything less than cliff-jumping boring (well they don't cliff jump, but you get the idea) However these people are making informed decisions and have no chance of harming anyone else. I don't think theres a person in the world who could deal with their stress by drinking but couldn't deal with it by some other means unless they are already addicted.

<< I've never tried it, so whatever benefit he feels lies in that activity is most accessible to me through *asking* him. >>

My gran advised me never to try smoking and made a point of not doing it in my presence. She tried to quit several times but couldn't. She followed this up by dieing of lung cancer. I found this a convincing argument.

It's also possible to drink and smoke while being considerate of others and not harming them.

Sometimes people feel desperate, and not having something that seems quick and easy like smoking or drinking can do them more harm. However, it's still important to avoid addiction and to move on at a later point, after having time to contemplate the source of one's problems (and the fact that smoking and drinking do not solve them).

I think it is acceptible not to try things as long as you keep in mind that there may be some benefit, and that other people who have experience probably have more input than you do on the benefit (they know why people do it). I've just found that people who refuse to try tend to also believe that there is no benefit, and that people who think there is any benefit are victims of brainwashing through advertising or peer pressure or whatever -- sounds kind of like your anti-dog argument.

<< It's also possible to drink and smoke while being considerate of others and not harming them. >>

Possible yes, but I don't think it's possible to drink and smoke without risking addiction (On the grounds that I know intelligent strong willed people who are addicted - I dont think its something you can just will not to happen) and I don't think it's possible to be considerate of others and have an addiction. (In fact one of the symptons of addiction is putting the addiction before things that were previously important)

<< Sometimes people feel desperate, and not having something that seems quick and easy like smoking or drinking can do them more harm. However, it's still important to avoid addiction and to move on at a later point, after having time to contemplate the source of one's problems (and the fact that smoking and drinking do not solve them). >>

But how do you do that? Or how would you know if you could do that?

<< I think it is acceptible not to try things as long as you keep in mind that there may be some benefit, and that other people who have experience probably have more input than you do on the benefit (they know why people do it). I've just found that people who refuse to try tend to also believe that there is no benefit, and that people who think there is any benefit are victims of brainwashing through advertising or peer pressure or whatever >>

As I say I don't think that there is no benefit, but I do think that the costs far outweigh them. Even if you could prove to me that there was a benefit I would still think it a bad idea - doing something that knowingly harms other to benefit yourself is just plain wrong.

<< -- sounds kind of like your anti-dog argument. >>

My anti-dog argument is not based on any sort of fact or reasoning - just a bit of a running joke. I know that they aren't really out to get me and my fear is completely irrational, but being male I have an inability to admit being wrong so I have to make up stories to prove how evil dogs are.

*doing something that knowingly harms other to benefit yourself is just plain wrong.*

We're talking about doing something that knowingly puts you at risk for addiction (we'll say for now), which knowingly puts you at risk for harming others. That's a bit removed from "knowingly harming others."

*having time to contemplate the source of one's problems (and the fact that smoking and drinking do not solve them). >>

But how do you do that? Or how would you know if you could do that?*

That's an individual problem. You can't always know what's going to happen. From my personal experience, picking out the feeling that you seek out in a substance, identifying it, and encouraging it naturally tends to speak directly to the emotional problem that caused the drug use. I started drinking every weekend when I went to college, did some dumb things, but felt what it was like to be a little bit less socially insecure, and after a while I lost interest in drinking. Last summer at what I would now consider the height of my depression, I started smoking (although I had always considered this to be gross), then I over time dealt with some problems and learned to encourage relaxation more, and then I lost interest in smoking and now I usually think it's gross again. I didn't know what would happen, I just knew that I needed something to latch on to.

*I know that they aren't really out to get me and my fear is completely irrational, but being male I have an inability to admit being wrong so I have to make up stories to prove how evil dogs are.*

I have this irrational fear of aquatic animals. I can't swim out in the ocean. But if I stay on land, they can't get me!

<< We're talking about doing something that knowingly puts you at risk for addiction (we'll say for now), which knowingly puts you at risk for harming others. That's a bit removed from "knowingly harming others." >>

True, I should have said 'knowingly risking harm to others' like drink-driving. You only risk driving badly and driving badly only risks hitting someone. So its ok?

<< That's an individual problem. You can't always know what's going to happen. From my personal experience, picking out the feeling that you seek out in a substance, identifying it, and encouraging it naturally tends to speak directly to the emotional problem that caused the drug use. I started drinking every weekend when I went to college, did some dumb things, but felt what it was like to be a little bit less socially insecure, and after a while I lost interest in drinking. Last summer at what I would now consider the height of my depression, I started smoking (although I had always considered this to be gross), then I over time dealt with some problems and learned to encourage relaxation more, and then I lost interest in smoking and now I usually think it's gross again. I didn't know what would happen, I just knew that I needed something to latch on to. >>

Drugs as something to latch onto when times are bad. It's a risky strategy. I suppose it could have some merit. I wonder what the statistics are on people who deal with their problems and give up again and people who get addicted and it makes things worse. Still can't argue a point without facts.

<< I have this irrational fear of aquatic animals. I can't swim out in the ocean. But if I stay on land, they can't get me! >>

Wouldn't be so sure. My mother used to love fish and go fising with her dad when she was a small child. One day one flipped right out of the water and, as she puts it, 'flapped' at her. Since then she's been phobic of fishies. So a word to the wise: fish jump. And flap.

*True, I should have said 'knowingly risking harm to others' like drink-driving. You only risk driving badly and driving badly only risks hitting someone. So its ok?*

It comes down to specifics, like the probability that something bad is going to happen, compared with the badness of the alternative. But most people can't make this comparison properly while actually drunk.

*I wonder what the statistics are on people who deal with their problems and give up again and people who get addicted and it makes things worse.*

I don't know either. From observation, most people I know who drink are not addicted, but most people who smoke are, but I'd say the drinking causes more harm to other people. And even an addiction can be a better outlet than, say, suicide. There's always the chance for making things better.

*Wouldn't be so sure. My mother used to love fish and go fising with her dad when she was a small child. One day one flipped right out of the water and, as she puts it, 'flapped' at her. Since then she's been phobic of fishies. So a word to the wise: fish jump. And flap.*

I'm not afraid of them if they're in *my* element. I don't like being in the water unless I can see that it's completely empty (maybe really little fish are ok). It's a weird phobia. Aquariums - ok. Underwater pictures - not ok. Boats - ok. Oceans and deep lakes - not ok. Occasionally I've gotten out of a swimming pool when because it's too overcast to see in the water.

<< It comes down to specifics, like the probability that something bad is going to happen, compared with the badness of the alternative. But most people can't make this comparison properly while actually drunk. >>

Exactly, but I can say that I won't be able to make the comparison while drunk. So if I get drunk I accept that I could make this sort of mistake and risk harming others.

<< I don't know either. From observation, most people I know who drink are not addicted, but most people who smoke are, but I'd say the drinking causes more harm to other people. And even an addiction can be a better outlet than, say, suicide. There's always the chance for making things better. >>

Yes, but it it seems unlikey that if you are feeling suicidal that drinking would help more than, say, councilling - drinking tends to exaggerate emotions so it would more likely make something worse.

Is it better to die than to live at the expense of others?

<< I'm not afraid of them if they're in *my* element. I don't like being in the water unless I can see that it's completely empty (maybe really little fish are ok). It's a weird phobia. Aquariums - ok. Underwater pictures - not ok. >> That bit is odd, isn't an aquarium like a series of underwater pictures - or would a flipbook of underwater pictures be ok? << Boats - ok. Oceans and deep lakes - not ok. Occasionally I've gotten out of a swimming pool when because it's too overcast to see in the water. >>

*Exactly, but I can say that I won't be able to make the comparison while drunk. So if I get drunk I accept that I could make this sort of mistake and risk harming others. *

That's why it's good to make a decision to never drive while drunk, even though nothing is black and white. What you're saying about altered judgement applies to all substances and practices that alter your state in any way, such as caffeine or fasting or anesthesia, or nearly anything. Everything we do involves risk, and every event affects us and other people. You can't avoid risk to other people, and if you try too hard, you'll end up curled in a hole. Minimizing risk requires that you balance it against something else, and just because people find that that balance allows them to drink doesn't make them callous.

Of course drinking is not better than counselling.

An aquarium gives you separation.