h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I should really treat your comment with the contempt it so richly deserves, though I know you are capable of more reasoned thought than this simplistic rush to the moral high ground

Your response:

">>Naturally our sympathies are with the Japanese people at this time, a timely reminder from some of our Grandfather's who may hold no sympathy what-so-ever www.burmastar.org.uk/1942.htm<<

At what point can we say the Japanese are free of what happened in WW2? It was 70-odd years ago and, although Japan has one of the oldest populations in the world, there are few people left alive who have any direct culpability.

It takes a particularly twisted mind to look at the news detailing one of the largest earthquakes in human history and think "serves the bar-stewards right for what their fathers/grandfathers did three-quarters of a century ago"

Let the dead bury the dead for s sake and show some humanity."

Open your mind, HI, and you will see my sympathies lie with the Japanese people and the horrific consequences of a natural disaster. I am also open minded enough to recognise that our Grandfathers, people I have known, would NOT share our concern due to their personal life experiences, qualified with the link hppt://www.burmastar.org.uk/1942.htm Ignoring their views and experiences is along the same lines as attempting to deny the Holocaust


The only twisted mind is in your own sad attempt at moral superiority When I wrote, I thought some numpty would be unable to see the reasoning. I'm rather disappointed it was you, since I consider you are better than that and have the intelligence to understand.

You say your reminder was timely, while I think it was profane. People are aware that the Japanese troops committed atrocities during their occupations of China, Korea and during WW2 so bringing it up, and passing it off as someone else's view (thus neatly swerving any personal responsibility), while Japanese cities have been rocked by one of the largest earthquakes in human history, while a tsunami was washed away entire towns and while a nuclear reactor is on the brink of meltdown is inhumane.

If my language seems excessive and you're offended then tough. A friend of mine has lost friends and family in Sendai and your attempt to score a cheap shot against people who've suffered an unimaginable disaster and have no culpability in the events you've referred to disgusted me.

It's got nothing to do with being narrow-minded, or trying to claim the moral high-ground, it's about simple human decency.

You really don't get it do you

I wasn't attempting to swerve personal responsiblity, merely stating an unpalatable fact of people I know, cobnsidering their views have equal validity even though I may not entirely agree with them. Something you may do well to learn from. Any offence caused on your part being "tough" I shall pass on to my friends at the Burma Star Association, I'm sure they will appreciate your simple human decency and concern

I still think you are better than that HI, clearly I'm wrong

It's not that I don't get it, it's that I disagree. There's a difference. We're talking about whether to hold a grudge or to show compassion and I'll always choose the latter.

Pass it on, if they're really going to withold sympathy from the victims of this because of what their fathers and grandfathers did generations ago then I have no time for them at all.

These are the same people who's personal sacrifice gave you the freedom to hold the views and life style you now have HI. I'm rather glad they had the time for us, rather than your narrow minded and tant pis attitude for their intransigence. It's good to see your PC bigotry only extends to what is fashionable and serves your moral idealism.

Yes, they lived and died to defend my rights and for a better world: a world where people aren't judged on who their ancestors were. In showing compassion, in caring about people on the other side of the globe, I'm honouring their sacrifice in the best way I know how.

I have ancestors who fought and died during the Irish War of Independence and, until recently, relatives who were able to remember those battles. They were still angry at what happened back then and the British troops who committed those acts but they were able to recognise their enemies were dead and gone and treated their neighbours well. Whenever one of my (Irish) nan's (mostly English) neighbours suffered a bereavement or anything like that she'd go around offering condolences, support and generosity - she knew what it was to live through a war and had no interest in carrying it on any longer.

She never forgot what happened all those years ago, nor who was involved, but she didn't feel the need to take a snide glee in the misfortunes of others.

Also, nothing wrong with moral idealism - gives you something to aim for and aspire to. I might never live up to my nan's heroism, but the least I can do is try.

I rather hoped your moral idealism may extend to any kind of empathy with old soldiers. Their suffering, nightmares and continued pain - yes many are still alive - doesn't sit easily with your political correctness. The suffering of those in the death camps, no less worthy of empathy for their views, I've no doubt invoke the most strident denouncement, rememberance (less we forget) and empathy if they failed to show sympathy in a simerlar situation

As I have said before, I don't wholly agree with the veterans of the far east campaign indifference to the current plight in Japan, but neither will I condemn it in understanding of their feelings. Unlike your simplistic leap to the moral high ground on a ill-conceived personal attack with puerile comments about 'twisted minds' and 'snide glee in the misfortunes of others'.

You are capable of better insight than that, I would hope.

Your move, I believe

Yeah, go on - lecture a gay bloke about the horrors of WW2 and the atrocities that happened: it's not like gay folk suffered much is it? And you accuse me of lacking insight.

I'm not arguing from a political correctness (whatever that is supposed to mean in this case) - as I stated pretty clearly I think that anyone who can take any kind of satisfaction in the anguish and grief of a 26-year old girl, who had nothing to do with WW2, and has lost family is twisted. There is no excuse for such barbarism.

I know what it's like to really hate someone, hate them so much you can't ever see yourself forgiving them, but I can also see how damaging such hatred can be, how it makes you less than a man and the only way to end it is to forgive and move on.

Your guys sound like they're still fighting battles that ended decades ago, against a foe who hasn't existed for generations. The only way they're gonna get peace is to stop fighting and remind themselves what they were fighting for. Tell them I can recommend a good counsellor if they need help with it.

Put it another way - I'm arguing for compassion and forgiveness, you're arguing for hatred and continuing to fight.

I'm comfortable with the argument I'm making, it's hard to turn compassion into a failing: can you say the same of your position?

A little unequitable of you, having two goes, especially as I have to fit this in around work. Not having the luxuary of sitting by my computer enjoying histrionics.

I really don't see what being a gay man, or woman for that matter has to do with it - are you now throwing in the 'victim' card Now that's really beneath your ability and behaving like a complete bounder
Perhaps I may have missed something

I'm not arguing anything, the original post was, as we both agree sympathy for the Japanese people. I also know the Burma veterans don't share that sympathy for obvious reasons. Do we condemn them as irrelevant old fools as you do? Or do we empathise with their, understandable in my case, indifference to the suffering of the Japanese people, based on the their experiences? Tantamount to ignoring the suffering of the death camps. All I ask is we respect and understand the 'Forgotten Army's' need to not share our concern.
I really don't want this to degerate into arrogance and destructiveness. We have both sparred with each another long enough to appreciate one another's game play.

As an aside, your Grandmothers magnaminity toward her Irish/English neighbours was/is laudable.

Hmmmmm, a question for you to ponder.
In the (unlikely, but not impossible) event of of another all out conflict involving the defence of the UK - would you fight? (rhetorical question) I think you would, and well. Pull the trigger and dispatch another person to which ever deity they happened to support? (rhetorical question) That is merely a matter of training .
Now the REAL question - How would you deal with it afterwards, later in life with the time to reflect?

Arguing for compassion and forgiveness as opposed to hated and continuing to fight? One presumes you are referring to Simon Wiesenthal

hppt://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Wiesenthal

I shall pass your thoughts of 'Well that's just tough' to my Yidish friend. I'm sure he will be impressed by your piety.

>>I really don't see what being a gay man, or woman for that matter has to do with it<<

Gay people were victims of the Holocaust too. Their suffering has become is part of my history, I include them when I talk about my predecessors who fought and died in conflicts.

>>Arguing for compassion and forgiveness as opposed to hated and continuing to fight? One presumes you are referring to Simon Wiesenthal<<

Not consciously but I'm remarkably well-read so maybe I was doing it subconsciously.

I'll meet your Wiesenthal with Martin Luther King:

"Meeting violence with hatred only leads to further violence, deepening the darkness of a night already devoid of stars."

Pass on my thoughts, I don't really care that much. I'm not interested in impressing people with my piety or anything else.

<< Pass on my thoughts, I don't really care that much. I'm not interested in impressing people with my piety or anything else.>>

Extremely disingenuous of you, or are you merely self deluded? For one who so frequently lambasts everyone with your alleged intellectual superiority whilst trotting out your qualifications and how well read in case we fail to be impressed
'Me thinks the Lady doth protest too much'
Gertrude in 'Hamlet', perhaps you would be gracious enough remind me of to whom.

That aside, Hypothetical question: Having dispatched your dispised enemy to whichever diety they happen to support, how WOULD you deal with it afterwards?

Just interested.

Sorry, should clarify: in this specific case, I'm not interested in impressing anyone else. It's not about that - forgiveness is a very personal thing.

In your hypothetical situation, I honestly don't know: I surprise myself on a daily basis with how I choose to deal with things. I will say this, I've dealt with more than my fair share in life and some of it I've been able to breeze through relatively unaffected, some of it causes me problems most days. But I get through it and I guess that's my defining characteristic, I'm not one for holding grudges or seeking revenge if I can avoid it.

<>

Something, we both, most definately concur on.

http://brokenbottleboy.posterous.com/richard-littlejohn-i-understand-japan-just-fi

Title is NSFW but pretty much sums up my position

I am glad you are continuing this conversation. It confirms my belief that you are, and continue to be, capable more reasoned responses than simplistic knee jerk reactions. That sounds dreadfully pompous It's not meant to be, more a tipping of one's hat to your ability. Even when it's offrontary at some of my 'Back's to the wall lads' puerile swense of humour.

We are, I believe, politically poles apart, but share the same tenets of equity and magnaminity.

Effers, and I hasten to add it doesn't sit easy with me to name individuals though these are open threads and this is far from a private conversation, has a unique ability to act as 'Deus ex machina' in some threads, yet goes to the other extreme with petty petulance Something you appear to be able to transcend, though as I said, Effers ability to see through the obscuration in threads is unique.

I read Richard Littlejohn's original article, what else would you expect from a Monday Club Conservative (lables are so easy to adopt) It largely, though not entirely, sums up my position.

Should we dismiss the 'indifference' of the Burma Veterans toward the Japanese people's current plight with contempt? We may not share their views, though I consider they are also worthy of our understanding based on the appalling experiences they had at the hands of that culture, all be it nearly 70 years ago. Let us not blind ourselves with politcal correctness, that there are indeed many cultural differences in the world that make one moral behviour acceptable to one but not to another.

The way you and Effers were going at one another, I would wonder if you are sock puppeting HI.

Easily disproved, there are folk on here who'll vouch for being a real person because they've met me or held long conversations with me by phone/email/facebook.

Over the years I've given enough info for people to work out my RL name with ease and, if they look closely, my current job and employer.

It doesn't take a sock-puppet to take on Effers, especially when she decides to talk nonsense about a subject I did my degree in.

Just noticed your prior post.

Pomposity from a Monday Club Tory? Well, I've never heard of that before. You'll be telling me that Phil/Pol grads can be arrogant next.

>>We are, I believe, politically poles apart, but share the same tenets of equity and magnaminity<<

True, and it's not like we disagree on everything: there's two or three things we can agree on. Don't be fooled by the grandiose, bombastic language, I do hold quite a lot of respect for you.

As for Effers, what can I say? She winds me up - she's incredibly arrogant (and when I'm not the most arrogant person in the room be very afraid) and considers her opinion to be superior to all others. When called on it, she retreats to blaming her illness or (though less these days) her sexuality.

>>Should we dismiss the 'indifference' of the Burma Veterans toward the Japanese people's current plight with contempt<<

I think it's important to draw a line between indifference and outright glee with what's happened in Japan. Those taking glee in the whole disaster do deserve contempt, it's inhuman.

Those who are indifferent because of what they suffered isn't a case of contempt but I do feel a strong sense of disappointment or even pity (what was that you were saying about being pompous) because it must really kill them to keep such memories fresh and relevant.