h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Thank you for inventing this excellent game! It's lovely to see so many people joining in, and to see the wide range of people's poetry reading. I'm used to thinking of poetry as a kind of guilty pleasure one does on one's own, or with one or two fellow deviants, and seldom admits to. It is truly delightful to see how many people there are out there who actually enjoy reading the stuff.

And for some reason, I'm inordinately pleased that you've heard of Georg Trakl.

Gee, thanks Snails! It's working out quite well, isn't it? I love reading the poetry, and find that it actually increases my love of poetry generally - if that's possible. The selections people are making seem by and large to be so intelligent and imaginative.

I certainly have heard of Trakl. I have his Collected, trans. unfortunately by Michael Hamburger, who's done a similar job on Holderlin. What I find with Hamburger is that his translations try to be too commonsense English and bland, bland. I have an old out of print study of Trakl - The Poet's Madness by Francis Michael Sharp (1981), and the translations in there are far more incisive. I also have an old, small Selected, which I'm ashamed to say I can't place for the moment in this house full of books, which again has much better translations. There's a fairly new Selected out - Autumn Sonata - by a new translator, but I haven't seen these. I stumble through the German with the help of translations. Of course, he's much better in German, even to my untutored ear.

I'm so glad that you too know Trakl. I thought I was the only one too

I'm very keen on the French Symbolists as well as German Expressionists like Trakl. They too tend to be mis-translated into middle-class, unimaginative English too. Hey, ho.

Jab

"The selections people are making seem by and large to be so intelligent and imaginative."

Yes, it's lovely to see, and is providing me with a reading list.

I've got Autumn Sonata, but not the other ones. It's Daniel Simko who did the translations in that, and as far as I can tell, they are done in a pretty straightforward way, but he's managed to find graceful versions of synonyms. What I like about the book is that each translation has the German original on its facing page. I don't speak German, but as with any foreign-language poetry, I like to see it in its original form, so I can see what was done with sounds, metre, stresses, and so on.

I'd like to get hold of some French poetry, because they have different rules: it's not about stresses, but about syllables and the varying lengths of vowels.

I'd be very interested in Autumn Sonata. Would you mind posting Simko's translation of, say, Grodeck, so I can have a look? (no need for the German).

Having the German original on the facing page is very useful and practical, even for me, who's already got the originals.

French poetry is certainly syllabic rather than stressed: it's untranslatable really, but isn't that supposed to be true of all poetry? I forget who said it. I rather celebrate their different rules, actually.

The best answer is to get French poetry with prose translation, if you know any French at all. Gerard de Nerval - Selected Writings, ed.Sieburth (Penguin) is a good example, although de N wrote so few, yet such sublime, poems that most of the book is taken up with his poetic prose, in English only. I also have the Penguin Book of French Verse, vol. 3 - which unfortunately seems to be out of print. Another strategy is to acquire as many versions as you can afford, (including from the Internet), with if possible accompanying texts, so you can construct your own versions. It's well worth it, IMO, although you're always travelling towards the poetry, never quite arriving. But that's true of all poetry again, n'est-ce pas?

Jab

Copyright laws prevent me from posting it here on h2g2. Is there an email address I can send it to? I didn't see one on your page.

Mine's: snailrind at pobblesquattle dot freeserve dot co dot uk.

Or, three random lines:

Under the golden branches of night and stars,
A sister's shadow staggers through the silent grove
To greet the ghosts of heroes, the bloodied heads...,

"The best answer is to get French poetry with prose translation"

You're probably right. My French is useless, but I know the general rules of pronunciation and can generally gather the gist of a poem's movement via translations. I'm inclined to think that nothing can be satisfactorily translated; there's always something that has to be missed out.

I'd love to try writing verse using French techniques, but it's probably impossible in a stressed language like English.

Welsh alliterative poetry appeals to me, too: another form that's nigh-on impossible in English, but which some Welsh speakers can speak in naturally, off the tops of their heads. Have you heard of cynghanedd?

It looks better on the whole. Here's the Hamburger version, showing the faults I described earlier:

Under golden twigs of the night and the stars
The sister's shade now sways through the silent copse
To greet the ghosts of the heroes, the bleeding heads:

...although 'shade' is better for welcoming ghosts...there's no such thing as a perfect translation!

I was hoping to get you to slip through the whole thing without people noticing! My email is jabberwock42atbtinternetdotcom.

Re: French - you might need a crib translation as well if your French is *very* poor. There are plenty of anthologies about. I think Bloodaxe may do one.

Writing syllabic verse is a lot of fun
Just count the syllables and Presto! it's done!

It's good practice. Another way to enjoy language.

Re: Wales I know nothing about Welsh poetry. Please tell me about it.

Don't forget to send me an email!

Thanks Snails

Jab

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140423850/qid=1143126023/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/202-5215544-6352608

I seem to have pretty much replied to post 7 in my last email to you, so no point in repeating it.

That book looks really great! I'll have to check it out. Bloodaxe do a good anthology, but it doesn't contain the originals.

"I was hoping to get you to slip through the whole thing without people noticing!"

My transgressions always get noticed. I try hard to be a good Snailrind, but I've been yikesed several times since I joined, for using forbidden words, breaking copyright laws, etc. I'm probably due for a thrashing by now. With a riding crop. By a tall blonde in tight black PVC...

HMMmmmmm... Peeveeceeeee... Ghaaaghh...



...




...




Sorry: what were we talking about?

Haven't the faintest...

The poetry game is a brilliant game for me,especialy as i have just moved and hav'nt been arsed to unpack some 2 tea chests full of books mostly poetry.You have given me the motivation.
I have always loved poetry and when i was a little girl lights out was very strict in our house,but in my bedroom i had a built in cupboard where i used to go and read,by candle light,it is a wonder i did'nt burn the house down or suffocate it woud have been dying for my art

I did that, but with torches. Under the bedclothes, which were a damn sight more comfortable than a cupboard!

Until the oxygen ran out.


Who was your favourite poet?

My mother Sussed the torch trick and took the torch away, candles under the bed sheets was'nt a good plan!The first book i ever paid for myself was Tennyson,not because i knew anything about him,i just liked the leather binding and gilt edged pages and having spent 2 weeks pocket money on it thought i should read it.I was about 9 then.
I have no particular favourites,but i do like Auden Larkin,Dylan Thomas and macneice,but it is mostly as the mood takes me and i'll read anything new,since writers are still bothering to write it.

sue - it doesn't seem to be possible to leave mesages on your Personal Space. Are you aware of this? You should have received one from an ACE at least, welcoming you, by now. I've written to the Editors about it. They're at support dot h2g2 at bbc dot co dot uk.

Jab

I had a reply. It's because you're registered with a messageboard, not with h2g2. If you want to play a fuller part in h2g2 you'll have to register with h2g2, or have your registrastion transferred, or have your regidsration apply to bothy. This last they are loth to do, for funding reasons, but it's the way I finaly joined h2g2 from Radio 3 - and kept both.

Jab

I joined from the Science and Nature boards.

I wonder why funding's a problem for people joining from another area of the Beeb site, as opposed to just joining from scratch

Seems if you are on their books as something else, then that something else gets the funding for you, not hootoo, whereas if you join hootoo, then hootoo gets the funding for you.

Thank you for letting me Know.As i hav'nt the foggiest idea what i am doing computer-wise i shall let my daughter sort it all out when she next calls over.It also gives her an excuse to smile sadly at me and wonder how long it will be before i need help crossing the road.

bluesue, all you have to do is email the staff at sopport dot h2g2 at bbc dot co dot uk and explain the problem. We use 'dot' here instead of '.' for security reasons, so just replace the dots and at with '.' and @ as in a normal email address.

Jab