h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hey Rik

I'm subbing the first of your Women in Islam entries - you'll find the edited version at A6359123. If you could just take a look at it and make sure everything's to your satisfaction, that would be terrific.

I still don't know whether some of the long quotes are going to work out - the Editors already made me break up some of them due to possible copyright infringement. But we'll do what we can.

Congratulations on a very interesting entry!

I don't know if it was intentional but the bit in the Pakistan section has been removed, that said:


"On top of all this is the blood feud which is common amongst the suburbs and small villages. These involve 'compensation' given for some crime against another village or tribe. This has involved the murder of whole families, rape/mutilation of women and girls forced in to marrying a boy from the tribe calling the blood feud or the whole girls family will be killed."

Is it possible to have some mention of the bllod feud in the Pakistan section as honour killings are in the hgeneral peoples minds eye and it is mentioned when talking about India as its something the two countries have in commen and is used to reflect on shared culture in part three.

Other than that its all fine, I don't think their would be any copyright infringment though as all hadith and ayahs from the Qur'an where written down 4000 years ago, well shy of copyright laws me thingks lol. An I know their is quotes from other sources but they are all given complete credit for them, plus I sent emails to all the womens rights groups that i wanted to use qoutes from and got their permission, as they pointed out to me, its highlghting an important issue. The only ones I have not seeked permission for is the human rights ones like Amnesty International, but I have kept their qoutes as brief as possible and still maintaining the point being made.

Other than that they all seem fine. Good work.

I just thought of something, yeah scary i know.

In the last section where talking about Pakistan could it be possible to point out something to the effect that:

"If other countries could help Pakistan and India sort out its difference through diplomacy like as between Isreal and Palestine, maybe law enforcement could be better inplemented within both countries as they would no longer need the high military presence on their borders for each other, and could effectivily use the army to bring outlying places under general leadership of the president of Pakistan and the leader of India."

As it just struck me that while both countries are trying to change womens rights and stuff, they are both far more interested in what the other is up to.

No wait hold on that would call for a solution to the kashmir problem wouldn't it?

I'll put in the bit about the blood feuds, but I don't know that the bit about Pakistan and India really 'works' in the context of the entry. It's a bit too much speculation and personal opinion, if you get what I mean.

The UN has certainly tried to effect peace talks between India and Pakistan, though.

When I've put in the blood feuds paragraph I'll return the entry to the Editors.

no worrys thanks.

Problem is the UN fail to see that the course is Kashmir and instead ignore that lol.

I thought I'd post these here since this is the thread "Women in Islam".
It's a fact that since 1978 there's been a law in Pakistan that a woman who is raped needs to produce 4 witnesses and that this law is still current.
As if that wasn't bad enough I've now read that a Muslim man can marry a girl aged 9.
To make matters even worse I also read that in the Koran it's written that a man shoul beat his wife until she obeys him.
I could go on. But what's the point. It won't change anything. In fact pushed far enough it will make matters worse if the reaction to the Pope's latest comment is anything to go by.

If you actually read the article you would have found that your above posted comments are already mentioned and covered in said article.

Thank you, have a nice day.

You're joking!
How can I possibly "have a nice day" when my Muslim sister does not have the opportunity of equality with me?

Oh, the fact that something is posted in an article means that we cannnot raise it for discussion does it?

Really, well from my experience on this site, people don't want to discuss as they are closed minded, and if you read what the article says then it also saves me time by repeating my self as the anser to your points are already there in the article.

Closed minded? There's nothing closed minded about standing up for the rights of the underdog and the down-trodden if you don't mind me saying so.
And if a point is worth making then it's worth repeating isn't it? I seem to recall from my reading of the Koran that several key points are repeated time and again.
But I refuse to be ditracted by your red herrings. What's being done in the Islamic world to put women and girls on equal footing with men and boys? Precious little is obviously the answer.

actually reform is in progress, and things are starting to change. For example about 4 or 5 months ago a non muslim women was raped in Pakistan by three muslim men, normally in pakistani law the men would have got away with it and the women was punished for a crime she never commited, but instead this time the three men where hanged for there crime.

The problem is that its a slow process simply because:

a)People over there are traditionaly stubburn and stick to there culture no matter how sick and twisted it seems to us.

b) Pakistani goverment and police only have control of the cities not the small village communities where morst of these crimes take place, they are under tribal rule so to speak.


An the reason i am tetsy is because you go on about pakistan but have you looked at India? more than 5000 women a year are killed by honour crimes.

The last time i pointed out some facts aboiut india is was moderated even though everything i said i backed up with links to news articles etc. If you want send me an e mail and i will send it to you ([email protected]).

But let me give you an example:

50 dead female gender unborn babies found dead in a welll near a hospital in india due to the cultural practice of the dowry system, meaning women are seen as a burden and not a blessing.

Heres an article that tells you about it, an you watch it will be moderated at some point.

http://www.indiatogether.org/2006/sep/ksh-babies.htm

So you go on about pakistan but ignore the actions of india? You put blame on Muslims even thoughing India can be just as bad due to there shared culture. Thats why I am not being very friendly, becasue i have had this conversation several times on this site and every time it just became a attack on Islam and a complete ignorance of the facts and actions of other non Muslim countries in that area that share the same culture and perform the same acts of mutilation, on the outward appereane for different reasons but the route course being a cultural practice that both have in commen.

So until I feel that your not just another person out to attack islam and not listen then I wont be very cival as i am sick to death of answering and being hold accountable for actions that are not mine, nor part of my faith, and not part of who i am yet yet getting completely ignored and insulted, and then geet my postings moderated when i point out a few truths and they moan as i am speaking bad aout india, yet they don't modify anything if is speaking bad about shitty little pakistan and its crappy goverment and curropt police force.

TRUTH Abid? I love the Truth! Just love IT!
I have some bones to pick with Romans and others too.

Abid, I think you're deliberately missing my point or cannot accept it. I'm talking about instructions in the holy texts that a man should be allowed beat his wife into submission (for example). I agree that the crime in India with the babies is a terrible thing. But what I'm talking about is holy instructions to commit worldwide discrimination by reason of gender and you know that that is my point.
I'll not be red-herringed!

actually i was dealing with your first point, whos trying to red herring anyone?

As for "To make matters even worse I also read that in the Koran it's written that a man shoul beat his wife until she obeys him" you show me where in the Qura'n it says exactly that. I know what you are referring to and i have already dealt with it in part two of the three part entry, so why not just write your reply to that instead of getting me to repeat my self.

Anyway let me point out to you that what it says and means in arabic is vastly different to what it means in the english text due to a loss in translation. But as you can not speak arabic (as far as i know) then you'll just have to take my word on it. Not that it matters as most Muslims who are not arabs do not understand arabic them selves.

An i do earge you to read my article as it will show you what side i am on.

I agree with your "I could go on. But what's the point. It won't change anything. In fact pushed far enough it will make matters worse if the reaction to the Pope's latest comment is anything to go by." statment as i already got 14 death threats of stupid pakistani men who don't like what i say about there country.

Abid, I'm not taking sides.

I believe ALL RELIGIONS to be a kind of FICTION. I mean every religion from African ju-ju to Roman Opus Dei and beyond.

The truth is nobody on this planet knows or has ever known any supernatural being.

What concerns me is that we have the UN Declaration of Human Rights and as well you know these Human Rights apply to women EQUALLY.

Countries in the UN should stick to the UN Declaration and not make women into 3rd class citizens.

post scriptum to my mess. 16 above:

Abid, as we correspond on the subject of 'Women in Islam' a thought comes to my mind: An attractive and intelligent Iranian woman who left her Shi'ite dominated homeland 16 years ago for a better life learned English, took another nationality, established her own business, & is now orbiting the earth in the International Space Station. If they look up in the sky over Arabia on a dark night they'll probably see it twinkling across the heavens.
Abid, there is no limit to what women can achieve given the opportunity. Hey, perhaps that's what Muslim males are afraid of.

Any Muslim women out there in h2g2-space, don't be afraid, please join the debate!

Lol, you so obviously have not read my article.

There have been two female pakistani presidants of Pakistan, and in beangladesh to women politicians have battled it out for president ship over there. UK has had one female priminister and USA has had none.

Pakistan in the cities is a country that has almost equal rights for women for education and jobs. Like western countries there are still some places for improvement concerning jobs, and many a Pakistani will point out that from a city perspective it is up there with any other modern country, and that at least they have had a female President.

For example in pakistan 10-year-old Arfa Karim Randhawa whom at the age of 9 is believed to have become the youngest Microsoft Certified Professional in the world. This is due to her being granted further learning from the Applied Technologies institute nearby where she lived.

An the quranic ayah you are looking for is:
"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
- Al Qur’an 4:34

A lot of discrediting towards Islam is due to the fact that most people, including so-called Muslims, don't know how to interpret the original Arabic used in the Qur'an. In the Ayah above the Arabic word translated to hit in the Qur’an is not a good translation for that word. This 'hitting' can only be done after the husband has tried all other methods of reasoning as well. The reason this was allowed is because the men before Islam came about husbands in Makkah used to beat there wife’s when ever they were displeased with them. Some women came to the prophet and complained about it. and upon hearing it the Prophet immediately prohibited the practice by allowing women to have equitable retribution. The men where not happy about this and complained back about the prohibition. They argued that it allowed there wives the upper hand on it, at that point the Prophet Muhammad had another revelation which is the above ayah. Now to understand this ayah we need to look at it in the shade of the Qur'an, i.e. by comparison with the other passages in the Qur'an which call for a high standard of gender interaction and communication. What this verse did was to draw an immediate prohibition on hitting women in a complex way6. The Qur’anic conjunction now imposes severe limitations on men who used to beat there wives, as the husband after this was revealed had to first established that the wife was nashiz, which means dishonouring the marital covenant, and hence disobeying God (thus the focus of obedience here is God, not the husband). "Then the husband has to go through several steps of anger management and conflict resolution before he can even think of “hitting” his wife. If these steps do not work, then the husband is allowed to “hit” his wife symbolically (with a bunch of basil or a handkerchief) to express his anger and frustration. Any harm to the wife from his action is clear ground for divorce. Furthermore, this symbolic act defined the minimal standard below which no Muslim may stoop."

Another thing to put in perspective is that the holy prophet Mohammad never hit any of his wives and Muslims believe that the Prophet is the best example of how humans should conduct them selves. This is why Muslims follow the Hadith.

There is a Hadith that relates to women and hitting them, which is this:

Ai’shah and Muhammad where walking on the beach and Ai’shah was complaining about some thing. A woman walked up to the prophet and said: You are the prophet of Islam, how can you let her talk to you like that. His reply was: what should I do this, and he poked Ai’shah with his miswak 8.
This is a very misunderstood Hadith as people over look the characteristics of the prophet and Ai’shah and say that he is hitting her. Rather what was actually happening is the Prophet Muhammad was being slightly sarcastic to the women saying, 'how can you let her talk to you like that'. Or in other words Ai'shahs so called complaining, was not bothering the prophet and instead of doing what the women expected i.e. telling her off, he instead jokingly prodded her with a twig. Even the Prophet Muhammad had to put up with a good ticking of by his wife at some time or another.

Oh and what you think of the white slave trade in england and ther europian countries selling white women in to slavery and prostitution?

The translation that I have for passage 4:34 reads thus:-

Men have authority over women because God has made one superior to the other . . .[Stop there! Am I, as a male supposed to believe that I am superior to all of the world's women? What about the village idiot who is almost always a male? Is he supposed to be superior too? It's patently nonsense]

and because they spend their wealth to maintain them [ah, the wealth thing! so what about the women's humble contribution; slaving over the stove, baking the bread, doing the washing, looking after all those kids, having all those babies etc., etc.,]

Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them [shades of the old German Hausfrau!]

As for those from whom you fear disobedience, [note: only 'fear disobedience' - the women don't even have to have done anything!]

admonish them, forsake them in beds apart, and beat them.
[well, there we have it don't we? A recipe for cruelty if ever there was one]

Then if they obey you [having been belted and kicked into submission]
take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme.
[well that's great isn't it? Nothing there about administering some first aid or at least wiping away their tears]


Seems that my Koran is a little different from your Qu'an, Abid. Mine is translated by an Iraq State Scholar from Baghdad who is the founder of ARADCO. So, how come we're not reading the same text?

In my enthusiasm to analyse 4:34 (previous message) I forgot to answer your point about the white women slave trade in Europe.

On this subject I can report a recent success by our local police. One gang leader, an Olympic ice-skating champion believe it or not, was sentenced to imprisonment. If memory serves me right he got 10 years.

If you have any information about this important subject please pass it on to your local police by Crimestoppers or some such agency. It's something Interpol is working very hard to stamp out. A word of warning though - the Russian Mafia is the main player, so take care.