h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi Doc (hoping I have come to the right place) - Jan Scrub here. Haven't been on h2g2 for ages, did some entries (one accepted) then got hacked off with the cliqueness of the Guide.

Hi jan/leo. Yup it's me, Doc. It's a handy place for contact messages here, as the other boards allow it to be mentioned, since it's technically beeb. There are plenty more boards now as you'll see if you follow the link to QQN. The legal specialists seem to live at QQR. Two barristers and a solicitor at the last count, I believe.

I've found myself involved with the legal mess for some years, but when discussion reaches a dialogue, it's time to take it off the QQ board, I think. Hence my suggestion of here. Are you in the profession, or did you just find yourself being pushed?

Doc

I'm certainly not in the legal profession! No I've been in some bother myself. My profession is the medical. Did consider the legal profession when i was younger but didn't like the ethics of the legal profession.

Yes, I noticed your medical guide entries after I posted that message. I'm being busted for stuff on my computer which was intended to be a collection of the kind of erotic photography that David Hamilton does, among others. As I now know, even though that might be legal when purchased in published books, it is 'taking or making' if one downloads it for free! Naturally, I also had some other similar material and some really nasty depictions of child abuse had sneaked in without my spotting them.

I have absolutely no interest in the latter, but downloading with a normal speed modem is best left as an overnight task. You can't pre-select from newsgroups unless someone includes an index.

Anyway, I shall be pleading 'not guilty', as I'm willing to risk a longer sentence to make the point. I also plan to take this particular law through the Court of Human Rights if necessary. If nothing else, I should get my name in the legal textbooks!

Is your case part of Operation Ore? I have been convicted of the same offence, my situation was that my mother (recently deceased) told me 6 years ago she had been abused as a 13 year old by her Great Uncle Fred and this crisis lead me to foolishly look for child porn sites (not for sexual gratification but a stupid reaction to this revelation). I know it doesn't make sense but my mind was in total turmoil. I think I received some very bad legal advice although the case probably wouldn't have turned out any different.

No. It is pre-Ore, dating from 2001. Anyway, I didn't pay for any images, just downloaded what is freely available in newsgroups. As I've said, I downloaded images of pretty girls posing, not being abused. As you know, actually getting the models to pose would not be illegal if one kept the lens cap on the camera, or if one painted the pictures instead of taking photos. It's so difficult to see what's wrong with some 'offences' that fall under this stupid law.

I've done a lot of my own legal research. I'm now on my 3rd barrister and 2nd solicitor. I think I finally got good ones. It's good to speak to someone who understands what a mess this stupid business is.

It is a massive mess. There are dangerous predatory paedophiles out there and people like you and I are being tarred with the same brush and treated with hysterical reactions. I haven't worked as a doctor for 2 1/2 years now, even though everyone has acknowledged I am no danger to anyone. Ridiculous.

I should have changed my barristers - I think they had judged me already (which they shouldn't do) and so weren't as helpful as they should have been.

Well leo, to be fair - barristers have to work with the evidence and the law as they are. They don't have much time to spend on each case, so you tend to get the standard treatment, unless you can work out a good defence for yourself and argue it with them. I had plenty of time to do it, thanks to various minor moves that kept the prosecution wondering what to do and calling on various experts.

Even so, I don't hold out too much hope for my trial, but I'm building in grounds for appeal on a human rights basis. Lawyers won't tell you that it's a neat idea to mention any appeal material in court. If not, you're accused of concocting it ad hoc! Trouble is, the judge can jail the person while the appeal is pending. Still, if it's clink, if have an idea or two for a book.

I take it you're now working in a support role concentrating on path lab type stuff.

Not working at all at the moment. Once you're suspended you can't even do support-type stuff. Even the sitting in on clinics I doing to keep my skills up was reported in hysterical terms when the local press found out. So basically i have to return to practise cold as it were. Ridiculous!

You shouldn't go to jail tho unless you have a lot of grade 4/5 images should you?

Hey, that's really tough! Society is cutting off its nose to spite its face. Dammit, it's tough enough losing friends, family etc which has happened to me even though I haven't even been tried yet.

I had a lot of images, but the proportion of 4/5 is very small - and none that I was aware of at the time. Possibly I didn't have the right kit to view them (codecs in the case of movie clips) and my monitor's brighness is demonstably about at the 2/10 level. Details wouldn't have been visible to me that show up on the police's posh printer. That's all in the defence case of course.

Even so, having pleaded not guilty, I'm probably looking at a year just because of the number of images. My mitigation is that I was deliberately collecting legal images. Not a strict defence, of course - although a factor in mens rea (I know you disagree) as well as mitigation.

toxx

Have you seen the new turn the 'God' thread has taken re 'Child Sexual Abuse'? I thought you might have a (carefully considered) contribution to make. You know as well as I do how people tend to overreact on this kind of stuff.

toxx

Not knowing those 4/5 images were there is a defense as that does not constitute possession. There was a case on Cardiff I believe where a doctor who had many pornographic images and a few of children successfully argued that these were not intentionally downloaded and was acquitted.

That's excellent information, leo. If you happen to recall the name of the doctor, that would be even better. If I manage to track the case down from the Cardiff location first, I'll let you know.

I was sure that it's a defence, but there might be evidential details that play a part. For example, my expert can demonstrate that a file hasn't necessarily been looked at even though its last-accessed date is after the date it was downloaded. Actually, I showed him how that can happen.

The models in most of my collection are of age too. Very many thanks. There's just a chance that my case will precedent a few acquittals and perhaps cheer the suicidal a little.

toxx

It might be Swansea come to think of it. I can't remember his name, have tried searching too.

Thanks for the attempt. Just knowing that it can be done motivates me to refocus on that aspect of my case. An approximate date, just the year, would help; but don't go to extreme lengths for me! I'll take South Wales as the relevant location. I don't suppose there are many other crown courts down there anyway.

I find from here: http://www.courtservice.gov.uk/cms/3680.htm
that the others are Merthyr Tydfil and Newport.

It was the latter half of last year - I read about it in the Mirror I believe

Ah, last year as in '04 as we speak? It won't be in Cyber-Rights either way. Thanks for the further info.

toxx