h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I am so bothered.
These prison photos *maybe* had to come out, in order to get an admission of wrong doing by the US.

I know we have the free press right but is it right? Showing them worldwide hourly is only adding to the damage (Us troops)in many ways and adding to the humiliation of those photographed and abused

The news just reported there was a CD made of the prison abuse and distributed to others

hi abbi,nothing is right about people been tortured,whether pictures are shown of it or not.I was amazed when i saw them for the first time,but it seems that we have to be shown them over and over.This kind of treatment seems to go on ,no matter what sort of prison it is in,and whether war is involved or not.I seem to recall an announcement that "the war is over",yet so many are still losing loved ones..

Abbi,

the photo's did not do damage, but the men who did torture or may be to be more correct the officers in charge, because there should have been instructions that torture was out of question! the instruction should have been from highest ranks from the start!

the photo's show that the some US officers do not respect Iraqi's human rights. I think that publicity in this case is important, but you are right that should not be shown every hour.

I know and hope that majority of US soldiers are doing their best!

Any propaganda is sucky I call it propaganda because I think it was used for other purposes other than to bring the truth of some abhorrent human nature to the news.

There are 'ugly' people everywhere in the world, but luckily not too many. Altho you might say that even one is too many...you know what I mean.

One does wonder at the crucial time that it has gotten out...must have been extremely hard work to get it out in the public eye, I am speculating.

With a bit of luck this might end the Bush administration.

I must admit, I always did want Sadam Hussein toppled from his peak, and the middle east sorted out with the help of the united nations out of their parochial views, just it seems to have not been handled very well. (understatement I know)

All I can say, and this is very metaphoric but appropriate I think, is that out of rotten things, something new brave and strong can grow - all it takes is time.

Forgiveness is not something the middle eastern people are familiar having hold grudges for so long, that is rather frightening. I hope whoever is going to be the CEO of America next can help with humility, these peoples of the East to help themselves build a new enlightened nation after this fallout.

Err..my mistake its commander in chief isn't it?

I also meant help with humility along with the other united nations...

By enlightened I mean with education and a better govt system for themselves.



ps..

I'm not very bright with politics n' stuff, this is just my own view. Go easy on me if you have strong view points

I am glad that i aren't the only one who isn't strong on politics,but we still know what we think is right and wrong.

~waves~ at Smurfles

There is going to be a lot of fallout over this. The reputation of the West in general and the US in particular is at an all-time low in the Middle East. This is so counterproductive. It is giving the radical Muslims another reason to hate us. I hate to sound dramatic, but I really believe that these few people in the US and UK military who posed those prisoners and photographed them like that to humiliate them will be responsible for a lot of lost lives on our side.

Thanks MV and I think you are safe on my page.
I sure hope so. If ever I am too tough on you for any reason let me know

"I call it propaganda because I think it was used for other purposes other than to bring the truth of some abhorrent human nature to the news" MV

So glad you said that.
It is hard to tell whose propaganda it is
I wonder why the reports had not been taken more seriously several months ago. Why the 53 page report had not been read by all at the top. There were 30 investigations! Why is anybody at the top surprised? It was on TV months before

The books that are out about this President seem to bring up the topic of repeated incidences of the insubordination of his trusted advisors (If this is true as reported)

Is this to shame in revenge for the burning bodies of the Americans on the news? That would disturb me even more if it is orchestrated by the US higher ups.

The President has not got a clue that his trusted advisors only tell him things on *a need to know basis* (CH- Rumy et. their need) not the whole reality?

A scary thought is he could not keep up the bravado for long if he knew what we do from the evening news

Many say he knew all of this information in Feb or March. He may have not seen the pictures but he can read. It is not right that he saw this on the news! Geesh this is not the first time I knew stuff from watching the news that he says did not!
I just wonder all kinds of things about the photos.

The President should have apologized and gotten the Red Cross in that camp to be bulldozed. I hated hearing him say "You must understand" to the Iraquis on TV without an apology. It is way past time for a few compassionate and humble words. This is why I do not strust the *story*

The line between military and civilians does not seem to matter to either side It is insulting to talk about our civilians being hostages but not theirs.

I sure get the feeling the truth is not being used in any of this.
My country tends to nauseate me lately
I am very sad and worried about it all.
The President is coming on TV now to say how disturbed he is that he did not know.....

Bush is apologizing for the humilation suffered.
But not directly to us (TV)

He is doing it by relaying what he said to Jordans leader AbdullahII in private.
He thanks him for his wise council.
A pinch of humble....

The rest is about the Roadmap and Palestine.

The think the majority are doing their best Pheloxi.
My heart goes out to them.
I know a couple of brave but tender hearts serving

The top is failing to take care of our troops properly.

**************
Well that was telling!
ABC news announced that the President was going to talk about his dissapointment about not being told.
It was not in his speech at all.
It was a question from the press core near the end of the broadcast

Hi abbi, hi all.

I tried to post on here earlier, but the house got struck by lightning & the electrics went off! Abbi, i am sure you can relate to that!

OK, MY own personal view:

I don't think the pictres were fakes, technically, the quality is rotten, they look like just part of some persons general snapshots of "life as a squaddie in Iraq" to me.

I reckon this sort of thing goes on all the time, on both sides of any war. Sad, but true. Humans do enjoiy torturing each other, for whatever reason. Cruelty & humiliation are part of life & certainly part of war. I know from personal experience that some Iraqi soldiers are capable of immense cruelty. I also know this capability is not confined to Iraqi's, soldiers or males.

The fact that a female soldier seems heavily involved & apparently very much enjoying it all makes me feel worse & begin to question the wisdom & selection procedure for women in the Army.

Yes, i DO think these pictures should be shown. Even if they turn out to be faked, partially or in full. Even if they were produced for specific political purposes. I think it will get people talking about the war, the reasons behind it, the moral rationale & the actuality.

I notice he is asking for another $25 billion from Congress so the troops can stay there till 2006.

When you say the phrase "Vietnam War" i would guess that a large proportion of people will get a mental image of a little Vietnamese girl running naked & screaming, coated in napalm.

Or how about "Holocaust"? How many of you get skeletal figures in a concentration camp?

Tiananmen Square? Anyone for tanks & lone student?

i would imagine "Iraq occupation" is going to conjure up the guy on the box with electrodes, just as "Iraq liberation" will be the statue of Sadman Insane's statue being toppled.

Sorry, just my view, i am almost certainly biased as i have been a documentary type photographer.

This site is worth a look:

http://www.ichiban1.org/html/photography.htm

*retires into corner*

zdt

A CD? Who were those 'others'? We've seen them in our local paper, the photos, that is...The ones we saw featured women, looking like the most harsh unsympathetic people...

<>
$25 billion... Phone numbers, I just can't relate to a figure like that - and 2006 - that is really bad news.

I'm with Terri on this.

It's true that the pictures have been broadcast a lot, and it's true that this is sensationalism.

On the other hand, if they had not ben broadcast at all, I'm of the firm opinion that the whole thing would have been covered up or minimized.

For a news organization to have documentation that something like this has happened (and I think the photos are real) and not publicize it would make that organization complicit in past, present and future abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

Silence is, after all, complicity.

NBY

More on the idea that silence is complicity...

It was 40 years ago (March 13,1964) that Kitty Genovese was assaulted three times, over the course of over half an hour, in New York City. At least 38 people who were awakend by her screams watched it happen. Not one of them offered help. Not one of them so much as made the effort to call the police. By their silence, they gave her assailant permission to keep going.

Silence is not always golden.

Phil Ochs had something to say on the subject. The first verse of his song "Small Circle of Friends" goes like this:

"Look outside the window, there’s a woman being grabbed
They’ve dragged her to the bushes and now she’s being stabbed
Maybe we should call the cops and try to stop the pain
But monopoly is so much fun, I’d hate to blow the game
And I’m sure it wouldn’t interest... anybody...
Outside of a small circle of friends."

NBY

I would never want to suppress the pictures but there are options between suppression and hourly viewing.

I know war is ugly and this happens and
I do not want people to be desensitized to the truth.

I do not trust how and why the pictures came about.
I am sure they are real.
There does not appear to be any fear of exposure by those taking them.

There have been similar incidences in our own prisons and police departments in the past years. It is believable and is not restricted to war times. Two of the people in charge, in the photos ,worked in Southern prisons and may be returning to their jobs. *sigh* Many more are likely to be put in positions of authority(or national security)when they return home from the war, whether they were good soldiers or not.

25 Billion is a joke. That may get them through to the election.
The cost of war has not been included in our budget!

It was not last year.
They were hoping to wait until after the election to get the money.
The real cost is said to be at least 150 Billion.

I remember reading about this, and I was horrified! Apparently, it's the idea people have that someone else will do something that kept everyone from helping. Not that's any excuse...

featured women, looking like the most harsh unsympathetic people...

Why are you all so shocked?

Its a war a bunch of people who decided they wanted to join an organisation who'se prime aim is to acheive its objectives by use of force.

Yes some of them will be women, the last time I checked they are human too. If you think that either soldiers or women in general are beyond this sort of thing think again and if you still think that get your head looked at.

We are extending the chances of this going on by pretending these atrocities are carried out by a few rogue elements. Some honesty about this might help, civilisation simply means all the unseemly things humans do just done in a better organised way and dressed up in fancy rituals.


one love