h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

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I am pagan and I do not need to repent. Christianity was brought to my country around 600AD, its a new-fangled religion from the middle east, it has no relevance to me or mine.

Paganism however is every countries indigenous beliefs, we don't chop and change to every new religion that pops up. We are constant in our beliefs and will stay so.

Hello Kaz,

What you think of as 'Christianity' was in existence in the heart of God from before Creation, and it is paganism which is the usurper.

'Christianity' did not arrive here, (I assume you are in the UK), in 600 AD either! The gospel was possibly here within three weeks of the day of Pentecost, and certainly within three years, so, around 33AD. What you refer to arriving here around 600 AD was Roman Catholicism, which is entirely another religion, which is paganism dressed in the words and names from the Scripture. It is much the same as you believe, and you should find yourself very comfortable with it, really.

However, this world is made and owned by God. He tells you what is and what is not, right. He says that all have broken His Laws, and that you must come to Christ and be delivered of sin, and be born again of the Holy Spirit.

Sure, paganism in its many forms are widespread throughout the world, but they all come from Babylon, and all owe their Genesis to one Nimrod.

God has said He is going to destroy all who follow those things, as they are against Him. If you don't repent and seek Christ that will include you.

Justin

"The Law demarcates what is right and what is wrong."

A promising beginning.

"You start from what He says."

And exactly the point I'm making. God has apparently given us his commandments, all twelve of them related by Moses and Jesus.

Start from his commandments and you will find god/gods/belief or whatever that concept actually means for you, be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc and even atheism.

There is no persecution and no hatred in such a concept.

What I can't understand is, given that these are the twelve most fundamental tenets of Christianity, how you can be so bigotted against your fellows, simply because they choose to live their lives in a manner different to you or choose to believe in a different concept of god. Perhaps you can explain.

"If you were the Lord's you would know that 'Holy Ghost', and 'Holy Spirit' mean exactly the same thing, and are used interchangeably in Scripture."

I know what you are saying, but let me re-iterate.

I assumed, correctly it seems, that you WERE using the terms interchangeably. However it remains fact that "Holy Spirit" is only used once (Luke isn't it?), while "Holy Ghost" is used almost 90 times and ONLY in the New Testament. In addition, the entire concept of this third incarnation of God is an entirely New Testament concept, created and disseminated by Paul and Paul's church, the Catholic Church.

In essence you believe in a fundamental creation of the Catholic Church, the church founded and created by Paul. Currently overseen by the Pope. Would that make you a papist?

"The gospel is written down, and plain to all, even heathens."

But now we return to the well worn path.

You have already stated that the "dry text" will reveal nothing to an unsaved individual.

You have already stated that an individual will be saved only at the whim of God and that there is nothing that an individual can do to effect their selection.

Clearly the gospel is not plain to all, even heathens.

It is, by your standards, only plain to those who are meant to understand it, i.e. the saved.

Stripped of their trappings, your beliefs are the same as the Pope. Your outlook on life and on your fellow man is the same as the Pope. The only difference between the two of you, aside from the frock, is that you live here and he lives in Rome.

Madent

If God think I'm worthy of destruction because I follow a nature-based spirituality then he is no God of mine.

Madent,

God has NOT given us commandments to be followed in the slavish way you presuppose. Jesus did not come to bring in another rules and regulations covenant like the Old Covenant. Biblical Christianity is NOT a series of 'must do's' and 'musn't do's', but a changed life which automatically does what is right, and checks out with the Word of God.

Judaism as a Covenant has been replaced by the gospel of Christ Heb.7-10. You should know that. Islam, Hinduism, Catholicism, Buddhism, and atheism, are ALL pagan based rules and regulations religions.

You misunderstand because you will not leave behind the churchy lies you assume to be 'Christianity' and move to the ground of what God says. The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant. That summary was summarised again by Jesus to TWO commandments. HOWEVER, no one can do what Jesus says except they are born again of the Spirit. The New Covenant which Jesus outlined, then died and rose again to bring into effect, is NOT a legally applied regulation system applied externally to people, but a new birth, a writing of God's Law on a person's heart so that they do it by nature. It is a nature change at heart, confirmed by what the Scripture says. Without that nature change it is impossible to live what Jesus said; witness the murderous history of the Catholics and modified Catholics called 'Protestants'. I am not bigoted against anyone, I stand for The Truth. That necessarily puts me in opposition to lovers of sin, deviance and error.

I do not have a concept god, like the others you mention do. I know God, through Jesus Christ, like all the thousands of Christians in the land.

I think you are trying a pathetic bit of baiting. English is NOT the language of the original text. The same word is translated by different translators 'Ghost' or 'Spirit', but means the same thing. I don't know why you are trying to make an issue here. There is none in the Greek or Hebrew.

I have tried, in vain it seems, to educate you out of your foolish adherence to churchiness in which you lived your early life. God spoke through Paul, as He did through Moses, and Peter, and Isaiah, and the rest of the men used by God to bring/record His word to man. I do not follow Paul, as God says, "Be ye not followers of men" and "Cease from men." If God can use a donkey to speak to man He can certainly speak through Paul, Matthew, Luke, John, Peter, or whoever,and still does today, through His people.

You know as well as I do that the Catholic religion did not exist before the mid-300's AD and that its claims such as you try and bait me with have been debunked so many times, and so comprehensively, that even you must realise that it is foolish to try and make a Christian think that the leader of the Cult of the Dead Woman has any claim over Christian people.

I told you that the plain text will only show a very rudimentary outline of God's standard and the fact of sin and a Saviour to someone who is not being called of Him. You will never see the truths that Christians see with mere intellect and a lifetime's study.

It is not God's whim, as you blasphemously suggest, that effects a person's salvation, but God's election of a soul. It is made plain to all as God saves them. The heathen He is going bringing to salvation are made to see the truth. Mt.16:17 for instance.

The pope might have some similar beliefs, it would be hard to pretend to be a Christian and not hold some similar things. The difference between him and me, apart from the frock, and where we live, is that I am born again of the Holy Spirit of God, and he is not. I know God and do as He says, He does not. I am part of the Church of Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, and he is not. Rom.8:9

Kaz,

No, Almighty God, Maker, Owner, and Sustainer of all and everything, does not say that you are worthy of destruction because you 'follow a nature based religion'. He says that "the wages of sin is death." He says that sin is shown up by His Law, which applies, on His Earth, to all people, and one part of that Law says, "ye will have no gods before Me."

Sin manifests itself in different ways in different people. In some it is in the form of lying, in others in sex outside marriage, in others in murder, or feminism, or alternative religion, or whatever.

Sin resides in you. That is why you will be destroyed, unless it can be removed from you. Hence Christ giving His life for you, in your place, so that you can be freed from sin, which is shown in you in your having a 'nature based religion', and other things, no doubt.

God has made a way for you to be free from the His Judgement against sin which follows your death, or Christ's return, whichever comes first.

And you are right, He is no God of yours. That is sin.

My dear Justin

It amazes me that you still cannot see the essential paradox in your own words.

"The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant. That summary was summarised again by Jesus to TWO commandments. HOWEVER, no one can do what Jesus says except they are born again of the Spirit. The New Covenant which Jesus outlined, then died and rose again to bring into effect, is NOT a legally applied regulation system applied externally to people, but a new birth, a writing of God's Law on a person's heart so that they do it by nature. It is a nature change at heart, confirmed by what the Scripture says. Without that nature change it is impossible to live what Jesus said"

The core of Jesus's message recorded in the gospels is reduced to his second commandment. "Love thy neighbour as thyself." His many parables demonstrate more clearly than anything that as far as he was concerned and as far as the gospel records it, your neighbour is not only your fellow brother in Christ, but the lowliest scum of the earth.

Standing for truth and preaching it may be one thing; cursing those who ignore you is quite another. They are still your neighbour, are they not?

"I think you are trying a pathetic bit of baiting."

I am not really trying to bait you, Justin. I am little pedantic, true, but then I appear to be in good company.

I am merely trying to show you that the "Holy Ghost" has only a tenuous relationship to the message of the Gospel. In my own view the entire concept is a construct of Paul or possibly the Catholic Church (which incidently was responsible for the editing of the Bible in its current form), a bit of charlatanism, taken right out of other religions to make christianity fit with existing religions. Similar in that respect to Christmas, Easter, All Saints Day, etc. but more insidious and subtle.

"You know as well as I do that the Catholic religion did not exist before the mid-300's AD"

I was beginning to wonder if you did. Perhaps you should also look at the provenance of the book that you refer to constantly. It certainly didn't exist before that date either. Some of the text wasn't written until then and large tracts of text were suppressed at the same time. Not just left out, but all copies sought out and systematically destroyed.

"It is not God's whim, as you blasphemously suggest, that effects a person's salvation, but God's election of a soul."

Semantics, Justin, semantics. Whim or election; one god, one vote - he's the god, he has the vote.

BTW, interesting comparison of Peter to a heathen.

Make your mind up, Justin.

Euthyphro's dilemma.
Is it good because God commands it?
OR
Does God command it because it's good?


Noggin

In CE325 there was an event called the Council of Nicea, one of the main points was that before this Jesus was known as a prophet, after this he was known as the son of God. This was decided to give his teachings more credence. Though I believe if the teachings were good, then why did they need more credence, especially when this was based on a lie?

Madent,

No paradox. You are seeing things from intellect, which, as I have shown you, God says cannot access spiritual things, and you are trying to understand spiritual things which are none of your business, as an outsider and enemy of God, with such wretched intellect.

If the gospel was just a belief system as you insist it is, and I am telling you that it is not, then you may have had a point. The gospel of Jesus Christ is NOT a set of commandments, (though it appears to be so to blind outsiders like yourself), and it is NOT a belief system, but a Person, Jesus Christ, Himself.

No Jesus DID NOT make any person, your neighbour, your brother in Christ. Since when did I say that anyone was the lowest scum of the Earth. Show me Scripture which says that all one's 'neighbours' are Christians.

You can try and show me what you like about the Holy Spirit/Ghost, but, as I am filled with Him, and He speaks to me, and I know Him, like all Christians do, you are on a hiding to nothing, and do not begin to know what you are talking about.

I did not compare Peter to a heathen per se, but when Jesus addressed those things to him he was not born again. That did not happen to Peter until the Day of Pentecost.

Noggin,

You missed something; the basics are plain, but the fulness of the things of God cannot be seen by you or any unsaved.

I think I will leave Euthyphro to his darkness. All Christians would laugh at such things.

Kaz,

You misuderstand. No Christian looks to the idea of the council of Nicea. That is what churchy people do. We have the Scriptures.

I would not take a blind bit of notice of the Council of Nicea if I were you, as for what is based on a lie, I could not comment, we don't deal in lies, it is sin.

"Buddhism, and atheism, are ALL pagan based rules and regulations religions".

Aaahh, clanging cymbal of real, honest-to-goodness ignorance. I have missed it.

I really have to ask again, Justin/God, in what foreign language school did you learn your very poor English?

What on your/God's green earth has got it into your tiny little mind that atheism is a "religion"?

H.

Buddhism rules and regulations? that is opposite to the very basis of what Buddhism is about. How very bizarre!

Thanks Hoovooloo for mentioning that line, you obviously got it just before moderation did!

Hoovooloo/devil,

All religions have a god/gods, and a belief system. An atheist is his own god, and will not have anyone who is called God rule over him. His belief system is a mirror image of all that, hence a belief system in reverse.

It is quite unnecessary to be an atheist if there is no God. There is no a-pinko organisation, because there are no pink elephants. But there is a God, hence you get atheists desperately trying, but supplanting and denying God's claims, to do away with God, in the vain hope that they are not going to meet Him, as He testifies they will.

So you agree that Jesus was a man who wasn't the son of god? A great man yes, a prophet obviously, but son of god, a meaningless phrase.

Kaz,

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Your question assumes that what I, and all but nominal Christians, are in is a belief system about a person called Jesus, and God the Father, based upon a book. That is not true. All Christians KNOW the Lord Jesus, and through Him, God the Father. They don't have religion, they have God.

'Son of God' may be meaningless to you, and considering your state I can well understand it, as I was there myself once. However, when you know Jesus you won't doubt it either.

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A very constructive response I'm sure. Certainly beats making any attempt to show why the dilemma is not a dilemma, and thereby removing a stumbling block from the path of people like myself.

Or perhaps the problem is that you simply don't understand the point of what is being said?

Here's a thought experiment. You're going about your daily business when something/someone communicates with you in the exact same fashion as God normally communicates with you. He says "Go into those buildings over there and kill every living thing; women, children, everything." Do you do it? And if not, why not?

Noggin