h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"Would you like to be rid of sin and death? Jesus offers you new life. Will you take it?"

Justin/God, you are once again erroneously implying that there is some element of choice, of free will involved. There is none. You have said yourself this very day that those who are to be saved were chosen before the creation of the world, and there's nothing we can do to change your/God's will.

So please, stop with all this faking that we have a choice. You're just yanking our chains for a sadistic thrill, and you know it.

H.

Well Hoovooloo/devil I am very sorry that you do not understand the mechanism by which God works, and feel free to teach someone who knows God all about it, but I do understand.

Sadism is a mark of your master, not mine

Hi Justin .

Just when I think you've gone off the boil you come out with an absolute howler....

"Sadism is a mark of your master, not mine".

Really? I'll not bother raising the spectre of Hoo's favourite answer to this (the babies in the lake of fire). Rather I'll challenge you to read up about the fate of the Amalekites in the OT. I wonder how the children of those people, ten generations removed from those that offended your God felt when the Israelites, at your Lord's behest, swept down upon them and murdered and raped them?

The OT is a true testament to your God's sadism, up to and including genocide.

Besides we all know who satan is the documented servant of don't we?

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

"I am very sorry that you do not understand the mechanism by which God works, and feel free to teach someone who knows God all about it"

Justin/God: the only reason I know what I know about you/God is because of what YOU have told me. You have, rather inarticulately I'll grant you, explained over and over and over again in tedious detail exactly how you/God work(s). I am teaching you nothing. I am merely reminding you what YOU have said. If that is inconvenient, or inconsistent, don't come crying to me.

H.

Hoovooloo/devil,

I am not in the least 'crying' to anyone, though I confess your tactics do put a wry smile on my face from time to time. Your master is running out of tricks, I have seen them all before when I have had to deal with his agents.

It is not what I have told you that you are repeating, but a perverse twisting of what I said.

Now, what about your sin? Are you ready, having been shown that you don't know the first thing about God, or His people, to repent, and come to Christ? Do you want to have a clean heart, and a clean life, and walk in holiness unto the Lord? Do you want to cease from being your own master, and serve Jesus only?

Matholwch,

There is some truth in what you say, but twisted, as ever. Sure, Almighty God has dealt with sin, and unrepentant sinners, very firmly indeed in the past. You could also cite the flooding of the world, and wiping out all but Noah's family. You could cite Jericho, and various other things. Rape was not done though, as you very well know.

But, the worst, for all unrepentant souls, is yet to come, see the book of Revelation for instance. The enemies of God, among whom you stand, have goaded Him for a long, long, time. But Scripture says that He has patience, until the last one is saved, and then you will find out how much you needed Christ who is offered to you. All is quiet at the moment, and you are allowed to spit on His Son and ignore Him, and His claims on your life. But it won't go on forever.

How about you turning round from your sin and evil and seeking to be made clean on the inside, and delivered from sin and death?

" what about your sin? Are you ready, having been shown that you don't know the first thing about God, or His people, to repent, and come to Christ?"

What if I am? You have told me today in very clear and specific terms that the decision whether or not I am to be saved was taken before the creation of the universe. What possible motivation have I for caring one whit one way or the other?

"Do you want to have a clean heart"

Yes...

"and a clean life"

Yes...

"and walk in holiness unto the Lord?"

Ah... sticking point.

"Do you want to cease from being your own master, and serve Jesus only?"

You fail to explain, ever, why I would want to consider that as an option. You didn't, for thirty years, and it did you no harm. You stole, lied, committed adultery, and none of that apparently mattered.

So I ask you again - what possible reason would I have for even THINKING about you/God? There either is, or is not, a predetermined time in the future at which I shall be saved. When that happens, I shall be just like you. If no such time has been predetermined, there's nothing I can do about it.

So why are you bothering me with these questions? I can only conclude that it is for your entertainment. You KNOW - you have told me yourself - that I cannot come to you/God by my works. ONLY if you/God choose to save me, will I be saved. And you/God made that choice long, long ago. I have no input, no RELEVANCE to that choice. I am a puppet, a plaything. So please do not pretend to be presenting me with choices which you KNOW are bogus.

H.

At first blush being intolerant of evil sounds like a good thing, and it certainly seems a shame that anyone should be vilified for standing for the truth. But what is actually being said here? What, for instance, do we mean by evil here?



So to paraphrase: God is utterly intolerant of all those who won't do as He wishes (and reserves the right to burn them all).

This, presumably, is good. But if I was to behave that way, in the spirit of you would, quite rightly, condemn me as an unreasonable and intolerant bigot.

So it's good for God to behave that way, but bad for anyone else to behave that way?

Now, I am sure that you will reply that God has the Authority to decree this. But what sort of Authority? Not moral authority, it would seem. "Don't do as I do, do as I say." never carries moral authority. Coercive authority? Well, if He exists, then yes, though his inability to enforce his writ suggests otherwise. But then, failure to submit to coercion becomes the definition of evil, and right and wrong are robbed of any ethical content.

If this is the truth it can be little wonder that those who stand up for it find themselves vilified.

Noggin

Well, Hoovooloo/devil, you seem to have realised that you cannot have sin and Jesus Christ, as walking in holiness unto the Lord, moment by moment, is the norm for all of His people. (This is the dividing line between the Christians and the nominals of course.)

If God chose to save me at the age of thirty, what is that to you? He saves some as children, and others when they are old too. Are you questioning the right of Almighty God to save those He has chosen out of sin when He chooses?

My sin before I was saved did most emphatically matter! It cost Jesus His life!

Well, God calls those whom He is working on by the method I have used here. Those 'with ears to hear' will hear. In one sense you are right, you cannot come when you want. But when you hear His servants calling in Jesus' name you will find, if He is calling you, a pulling in your heart. That is how God saves people.

"Jesus said, No man can come to me except my Father draw them."

I would not do as you say, that would be sick in the extreme, and the Father would hate that.

Noggin,

Evil in the eyes of God is all that disagrees with His nature, and opposite of holiness.

To paraphrase correctly; Almighty God is utterly intolerant of all unholiness, which is sin, and reserves the right to destroy all that is tainted with it, stating clearly that NO sin will pass into the new creation. He has made a way for men to be saved from sin, in the blood of His own Son Jesus.

It is good for God to state on His Earth, among those who breath His air, what is right and what is not. He OWNS you and me, and everything. It is not acceptable for anyone else to take His place and set up their standards, taking His place as their own gods, no.

I have answered by what authority He commands these things above. He has absolute MAKER'S rights. His authority is not coercive. He will NEVER make you repent,and serve Him, against your will. When the great Judgement begins then you have to be found in the only safe place; in Christ Jesus, spiritually.

And who gets to say what the "rights" of a maker are?

Ever hear of Euthyphro's dilemma?

Noggin

You are slipping Justin. You haven't responded, yet. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/classic/F91415?thread=262633&post=3228189#p3228557

Noggin,

No, never heard of it. But as He made the Heavens and the Earth, and is all powerful, and says He owns it all, including you, you perhaps would do well to listen to what He says, as He plainly has the power to destroy it too.

Hi Justin ,

"There is some truth in what you say, but twisted, as ever."

If it is twisted it is from lack of understanding, after all I have never claimed any high knowledge of your Bible.

"Sure, Almighty God has dealt with sin, and unrepentant sinners, very firmly indeed in the past."

'Firmly' is somewhat of an understatement don't you think? If I were to wipe out Swindon with a nuclear weapon because I knew that the people there were mostly pretty mean, would you still not weep for the children? The US President is facing the same choice with Bagdadh. What if old Saddam and his Guard make a stand? Does that justify genocide? Isn't your God above such petty revenge?

"Rape was not done though, as you very well know."

I am ready to be proved wrong but the the story of the Amalekites was one of the key points in my upbringing that turned me away from Jehovah. In that story I am sure that God commanded that the Jews should slay the Men and Boys and that they could carry off and 'take' the wives and daughters. Just what, in the context of the ancient Middle East do you think that would have implied? I'm pretty sure that the women of the Amalekites would not have submitted gratefully to an invading army, to whom they had not given any offence in living memory, especially after they watched them slaughter their menfolk. Rape, I am sure, was the least of their sufferings at the hands of God's Chosen People.

"The enemies of God, among whom you stand, have goaded Him for a long, long, time."

When, Justin, are you going to get it through your skull that I am only an enemy of your God, and thus your faith and you, by your definition, not mine? I neither harbour ill will towards you, nor do I have any wish to persecute you.

"All is quiet at the moment, and you are allowed to spit on His Son and ignore Him, and His claims on your life."

Less of the spitting eh? You've known me long enough now to know I have never spat on Jesus or his works. Indeed amongst your coterie of admirers here on h2g2 I am possibly the one who speaks most kindly of your Messiah. The fact is I look upon him as a mabon, a teacher and healer of souls, who must have existed to have created such a following. I particularly admire his stand on tolerance and love.

"How about you turning round from your sin and evil and seeking to be made clean on the inside, and delivered from sin and death?"

I am yet to hear from you a clear description of what 'evil' and 'sin' you either imagine or can prove I am guilty of. I am not an adulterer, a murderer or a thief. I do not covet nor do I disrespect my parents. I do not suffer from false pride (indeed my problem may be the reverse, false humility ).

My only failing, and it is one I cannot do anything about, is that your God has not yet chosen to author His faith in me. One should consider Justin that if he is willing to do so in one such as you, he could still do it for me. In your own words it matters not what I do, what good works I carry out, He will choose me, or He will not. My asking to be saved will be irrelevant.

I look forward to your reply on this.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

Madent,

You have to start with throwing out your own ideas and begin with what Almighty God says. You cannot start with your own modifications and abreviations of what you THINK God says. You cannot keep those commandments, even if you tried, even your modified ones.

True, you will answer for your faults, and "The wages of sin is death." Doing your best is not good enough. Any sin at all will result in your destruction, as NO sin is passing into the new Creation.

I do not run from any faults of my own. All my sin was dealt with in Christ, on the Cross, praise God! And I am free from them. That is what the gospel is all about, did you but know it. Someone has to pay for sin, and Jesus paid for mine, but you won't have that, you will not accept that you are so bad that that is all you are worthy of.

You have the stunningly incompetant misunderstandings of all unsaved churchy persons. I am telling you what the Word of God says, (not believed by the Apostasy of England,etc.), and you prefer churchy persons teaching; the fables of the frolicking frocks. We will see a moment after you die who is right; the man who believed God, despite the wicked unsaved frolicking frocks who would rather deny the Word of God than obey, or the man who believed God.

Justin

The terrible fate of the Amalekites is largely dealt with in 1 Samuel and 2 Samuel.

Justin

"You have to start with throwing out your own ideas and begin with what Almighty God says."

You would do well to listen to yourself now and again.

"You cannot start with your own modifications and abreviations of what you THINK God says."

You will have to be clearer. I have broken down the core commandments of Moses and Jesus. Everything else written in the Bible is supposed to be an interpretation of those commandments or a demonstration of their application. How is anything that I have written either a modification or an abbreviation?

"You cannot keep those commandments, even if you tried, even your modified ones."

Unlike you, I never claimed to be perfect. I said it was an ideal that I sincerely believe is a genuine life model for any person of any religious background, even an atheist. If we could all follow such a simple set of rules, this world would be wonderful. If we could try, then at least it might be better.

"True, you will answer for your faults, and "The wages of sin is death." Doing your best is not good enough. Any sin at all will result in your destruction, as NO sin is passing into the new Creation."

This focus on sin is so unhealthy. I have to say I do understand where you are coming from, Justin, but I really feel that you need to realise that you are wrong.

"I do not run from any faults of my own. All my sin was dealt with in Christ, on the Cross, praise God! And I am free from them. That is what the gospel is all about, did you but know it. Someone has to pay for sin, and Jesus paid for mine, but you won't have that, you will not accept that you are so bad that that is all you are worthy of."

What happened Justin? You have admitted adultery and even that your lover fell pregnant. (Have you any children?) You have admitted all kinds of crimes. Fine, confession is good. But have you dealt with these crimes? Admitting your guilt to yourself is only the first step. Fine, accept salvation from the Lord if that is what you want to believe. That still doesn't mean that you have dealt with the consequences of your actions. Put right your past mistakes. Atoned.

All I can hear in your preachings is the pain of a frustrated, jealous man, who has been unable to deal with his own pain and grief, who has steadfastly refused to take responsibility for his own actions and who quite sincerely believes that what he is doing will ensure himself of an eternal life after this one ends.

"You have the stunningly incompetant misunderstandings of all unsaved churchy persons."

Help me to understand Justin. (Although I'd leave off the churchy bit for now. That I most certainly am not.)

Thank you Madent, but it is not so terrible as your end if you don't repent of your sin.

Madent,

Exactly, you think that what I have is some sort of commandment based mere relgion, like Catholicism or Islam, but it isn't, and nowhere will you find such things taught in the New Testament. This is the New Covenant era.

I am not sure where you get the idea from that 'Everything else written in the Bible is supposed to be an interpretation of those commandments or a demonstration of their application.' It is not true, and no Christian holds that. You are applying your unsaved churchy background ideas again. You must stick to the truth if you are ever to understand. You must start from the position that you have not got the foggiest idea of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is a spiritual revelution, actually and really, and not a mere relgion such as practiced by the unsaved; nominal Christian, and other heathen alike.

You should learn the lesson from history that human beings are basically and fundamentally evil, and they must, as Jesus said, be born again of the Holy Spirit of God, or they will burn. No new birth, no salvation; whether or not they attempt religious observance of high ideals that they cannot possibly keep, Rom.7:7-25.

A focus on sin is only unhealthy for the unsaved, religious and otherwise. God hates sin and so do ALL those who are born again of the HOLY Spirit. No holiness - no Heaven. From your perspective I may be 'wrong', but God is pleased with me, as I stand with what He says, and I know Him. You are in no position to teach someone in my position, or that of any (real) Christian.

You don't understand. If and when you come to Christ, and you are born again ALL your sin is washed away. Not just the actual crime, but ALL guilt too. It is wonderful! Praise God! Christ atoned from my sin, and I don't need to atone for anything. If I tried I would be insulting the Lord Jesus by telling Him, by my actions, that His sacrifice was not good enough to deal with my sin, and I would be in the Catholic religion, but I am not, I am a normal Christian, not a nominal.

You are misunderstanding. I have NO pain,and NO frustration. What I do will not affect my salvation one iota, that is all given to me in Christ. I cannot earn anything in that sense. And neither can you. I took responsibility for my actions when I was brought to repentence many years ago, and all that was taken away, and I was freed from sin, just like all Christians have been, and you must be. It is not for someone like you, who is still up to his neck in sin to be teaching those who have been freed by God, what is right and what is not, is it?

Justin

"you think that what I have is some sort of commandment based mere relgion ... and nowhere will you find such things taught in the New Testament"

I find it very odd that you can condemn the activities of others (like homosexuality) based on biblical laws and commandments and then say something like that.

"You must stick to the truth if you are ever to understand. You must start from the position that you have not got the foggiest idea of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is a spiritual revelution, actually and really, and not a mere relgion such as practiced by the unsaved; nominal Christian, and other heathen alike."

Ahh. So all of these biblicl quotations are absolutely worthless then. The Gospel that YOU follow is not written down AT ALL.

"You should learn the lesson from history that human beings are basically and fundamentally evil, and they must, as Jesus said, be born again of the Holy Spirit of God, or they will burn."

By Holy Spirit I assume you mean Holy Ghost.

For your edification, "Holy Spirit" is used only once in the entire Bible, "holy Spirit" (which has an entirely different meaning appears only 6 times. "Holy Ghost" appears 90 times but not at all in the Old Testament. It barely gets a mention in Mark and John. But the concept seems to fill the works of Paul. Speak of the devil (oops, its just an expression )

Rom.7:7-25

Read from verse 7, it makes little sense. Read from verse 1 makes it slightly more understandable. However the Gospel is not written down is it?

"You are in no position to teach someone in my position, or that of any (real) Christ"

Teach? I am here to learn, as are most of us.

No I don't understand, Justin. I don't understand you, but I think I know you.

You are the epitome of the TV evangelist. All you need now is to figure out a way to collect money over the internet to further the aims of your "church".

Madent