h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi, Justin (sorry to interrupt, Hoovooloo - I am learning a very great deal so I would like to thank youo both for continuing this interesting discussion)

Just one point ...

"I can tell you where to find,in the Word of God, the reference to Satan's fall, Isa.14:12 on, but, as you don't believe God, you don't believe His servants, and won't accept the Word of God to be just that, I don't see why you would want to know."

The name "Lucifer" appears but once in the entire Bible. (Outside of the book of Job, the name "Satan" appears in but four verses of the old testament and only five verses of the new.)

At no point is there any connection drawn between the two names and at no point is there any indication that they refer to the same thing. The context does in fact rather suggest a reference to the morning star, Venus, than any malign being.

Of course, I wouldn't dare to challenge someone with a college degree

PS Interestingly, the first reference to Satan within the book of Job, describes Satan as one of gods sons.

"You don't understand, you are applying your thinkiing and your situation to me, as if I am in the same place as you. I am NOT separate from God, NO Christian is separate from God. That is what sin does."

OK. Fine. You are God. Great. No problem. Don't understand why you argued with me when I said it before, but that's pretty clear now - you and God are the same thing. Cool.

"I understand that you are separate from God yourself, as I was there once myself. But,like all Christians, Christ, who is God, lives IN me by His Spirit. I am spiritually fused into Him, and Him into me, and that becomes more so as the work of God in sanctfication goes on."

Fine. I understand. In that case, why did you react so indignantly before, and claim NOT to be God?

"Please don't assume that just because you are separate from God and don't know Him that that means so are Christians."

Oh, I don't. I'm not comparing my own situation to your at all. I just didn't realise you were God, that's all.

" can tell you where to find,in the Word of God, the reference to Satan's fall, Isa.14:12 on, but, as you don't believe God, you don't believe His servants, and won't accept the Word of God to be just that, I don't see why you would want to know."

I wanted to know because I seek knowledge at every turn. Thank you for directing me to that verse. I can't find any reference there to free will, but I suppose you can see it if you're God.

"You don't need to understand the Bible in your state, and you don't need anyone to interpret it for you; even if they did you would not understand what they mean."

Fine. No problem. I'm just curious why you keep quoting it at me then, when you know I cannot understand it and don't need to. What's the point?

"You must be born again and then you will see as Christians see. That is God's work in you, not mine, or yours."

Um... that's what I've been trying to tell you. You condemn me for not being saved, when you KNOW that there's nothing I can do about it. It is for YOU to choose when to save me, since YOU and God are one. So if I'm not saved - it's YOUR fault.

"All you need to understand is that you are totally corrupted by sin, with no good in you in and of yourself."

Oh, I have no trouble understanding that. I even believe it. Anyone who has even the slightest degree of introspection knows that their base instincts are not altrustic. How else to interpret this self-knowledge but as the infection of sin?

"When you see that with no doubt whatever you will then seek Christ to be delivered of it."

Hmm. That does not follow. It requires:

1. I think that the infection of sin is necessarily bad.
2. I think that I cannot mitigate its effects by my own efforts.
3. I think there is some way of mitigating its effects.
4. I believe that Christ is that way.

I'm not convinced about (1), let alone (2), (3) or (4), so I will not be seeking out Christ any time soon. And in any case, you have very clearly told me yourself that seeking Christ is a waste of time, since it is only when YOU choose me, God, that I shall be saved, and that nothing I do can influence you.

"But, as you see yourself as fundamentally good, with the odd bit which may need some modification, you don't think you 'need' Christ, and you cannot be saved."

I do not consider myself fundamentally good. I do consider myself fundamentally selfish at the genetic level, and quite capable of appalling evil, and I consider all humans similarly. If you ever thought of yourself as fundamentally good, Justin, then you were even more deluded than you are now.

"As for communication; until you are prepared to get off your high horse and cease from instructing God and His servants, and listen to what they say to you, you will NEVER understand."

Now you confuse me. I have instructed you in nothing. I have asked you things. I have attempted to get you to explain things simply, to me, someone not equipped to deal with your spiritual explanations, through no fault of my own.

I have not got on any high horse. I'm just trying, slowly and carefully, to get you to explain yourself and to communicate in English. I may understand better if you apply yourself to communicating rather than making these confusing non-sequitur pronouncements.

Or perhaps not. I wonder why you bother - if you know I won't understand until you choose to save me (you and God are not separate, remember, so it is YOUR choice whether I'm saved, and therefore whether I will understand), why not choose to save me NOW, right this minute, so that I SHALL understand?

Why don't you stop wasting your time failing to explain to someone you know can't understand, and just get on with authoring saving faith in me? You and God are one, and only God can author saving faith, so PLEASE, get on with it. If you don't, I can only assume you have judged me unworthy, in which case, thanks a lot.

"Almighty God is speaking to you through me, but you won't listen."

I will listen, if you can PROVE to me that you are not speaking the words of Satan. Without being saved, I have no way to tell, do I? I'd have to be very gullible just to take your word for it.

"God uses His servants to speak. He is not likely to speak to you directly."

Why ever not? Am I not worthy? Is it too much effort? Didn't he speak to YOU directly? Doesn't he do so all the time? You've said as much, many times.

"It does happen, but rarely. Usually He uses His body, the Church, to speak to the world, beginning with the apostles, and with many others thereafter. You are trying to divorce His body from Him."

Not at all. I'm listening for his voice. When I hear it, I'll know, you say. So far, I don't hear it.

"If you don't think I am a servant of God then you must go and find someone who is, and who you will listen to."

I don't wish to speak to or listen to servants. God spoke and speaks directly to you. He can do as much for me.

"If I am a servant of God then you had better stop demanding things be done your way and listen to those who serve Him."

I will, as soon as I can be assured beyond doubt that such people are NOT unwitting servants of Satan.

"If I am a servant of God then, by divorcing me from God is blaspheming the work of God in me."

Um... no. It is exercising sound good sense in wishing not to be led astray by the work of Satan. Until I'm saved, I can't know you're not doing that. So save me.

"If I am not a servant of God you had better go away and leave me alone, had you not?"

Or what?

I'm interested in YOU. This is not a complex concept. Please understand. I am interested in you whether or not you are a servant of God. I shall therefore not be going away any time soon.

"There is no Catch22. If God is speaking to you through one of His servants you will know it."

EXCELLENT. Finally some usable information.

"If you are not hearing God speak to you, and touch your life, then either the person is not the Lord's servant, or God is not yet speaking to you."

WONDERFUL! Thank you for being so clear, finally.

I am not hearing God speak to me. I'm sure I'd know if I was. You are not a servant of God, then. Or God is not speaking to me.

Since you and God are one, you will of course be able to tell me WHY God is not speaking to me.

"I do not restrict God at all. I told you WHAT HE SAYS."

So you say...

"He works by His Word. He spoke, and the world was. He speaks through His servants and people are saved. I call that power.........."

I call that an entertaining story, so far.

"It is nothing to do with me. If God is speaking to you through me, or not, then that is a matter for Him, not me."

Um... you ARE him, Justin, and he is you, you said so yourself in this selfsame post. Are you now saying that you are a separate and distinct entity with separate responsibilities?

Can you see how this is confusing? You are God, or you are not. Pick one.

"There is only one way into the kingdom of God. The path is through conviction of sin, and a being brought to Christ by His own work, through His people."

OK. Fair enough.

"You appear determined not to accept that you are a sinner"

And you appear determined not to understand that I DO accept precisely that, and did before ever I had heard of you.

"and until you come there, there is no point explaining the cure. Only sick men need medicine."

But not all sick men have any use for medicine.

"You are not required to understand anything as I have told you."

Why have you been wasting your time saying it then?

"All you need to see is your utterly rotten state, and that is HIS work to show you. Not a pretty sight, either."

That is your opinion, to which you are entitled.

"Almighty God is not a mere man that He needs instruction from men. His people DO NOT look to any mere man for instruction,but to God."

Yada yada.

Did God teach you to drive your car, Justin?

"You are trying to use worldly thinking and make it apply to spiritual things, you cannot do that. It is like trying to apply a handbook for a Ford Fiesta to a high-tec fighter bomber."

I would think a better analogy would be trying to apply a science textbook to witchcraft. Actually no, come to that it's not even that close a connection.

It's like trying to apply the manual of a PC to a paintbox. Hmm. A bit better.

"It is NOT me that says you are not to be privvy to spiritual things, it is GOD"

Sorry to mention this again, but who is this "me" you refer to who is separate from God? Either you and God are one, in which case you have his responsibilities, or you are not - but you tell me you are. Pick one.

"as I showed you in the appropriate text. The things of God are for HIS people, and not for outsiders and enemies."

I'm not your enemy, Justin/God. I'm an outsider, for sure, for I do not hear God speaking to me as you do. And given that you yourself, Justin/God, are the only one who can save me and make me HEAR the voice of Justin/God, I'm asking you to please do so now. Or take full responsibility for not doing. Pick one...

H.

Madent,

Very wise. As a man who does not know God, and is an utter outsider to the things of God, and only has the dry Biblical text to go by, you would be wise not to challenge someone who is the Lord's and knows Him.

Sure, 'Lucifer' does appear only once in the Bible. And, yes, he was a 'son of God' before being cast out.

Hoovooloo,

You are twisting what I said, but considering who your master is.......

I cannot author saving faith in you. God will be vindicated, and the truth I have told you will be proven one way or another, you will believe..........everyone does. You will submit to God, either when you cease branding God a liar by deny His Word, and refusing to listen to those who deliver it, or a moment after you die. There is no escape.

"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

My dear, Justin (sorry again Hoovooloo)

"Sure, 'Lucifer' does appear only once in the Bible. And, yes, he was a 'son of God' before being cast out."

That's exactly the kind of faulty logic that I think we all have a problem with. Satan was a 'son of god' who was mainly used by God to test Job, whereas Lucifer was a colloquial name for the planet Venus. At least that is what is written down in Scripture.

Did I miss something?

Perhaps you could indicate where the relationship between the two comes from (you might even like to include the serpent in there).

Hello again Justin/God. You've not really answered any of my questions, but in any case...

"You are twisting what I said, but considering who your master is......."

The only reason my master is who he is is because you refuse, so far, to author faith in me, Justin/God.

And I do not twist what you say. I take what you say and require that you MEAN it. If you refuse to take responsibility for what it is you have said, I shall point it out, and you will accept that.

"I cannot author saving faith in you."

Ah, now that is a lie, or else something else you have said is a lie.

I'm sorry, but this is so simple and yet you seem to have completely contradicted yourself.

1. You and God are one entity, i.e. you are God, and are not separate from him in any way.
2. God can author faith in the unsaved.
3. You cannot author faith?

You can see how 3 does not follow from 1 and 2, and yet you insist on all three. Not my problem, though, Justin/God - yours. I do not twist your words, I merely expect you to mean what you say and stand by it. If you cannot, or refuse to, that is your problem, not mine.

"God will be vindicated, and the truth I have told you will be proven one way or another, you will believe..........everyone does."

Thank you for your opinion.

"You will submit to God, either when you cease branding God a liar by deny His Word, and refusing to listen to those who deliver it"

If you were delivering God's word, I would know it. YOU told me this.

I do not know it, therefore you are not delivering God's word to me.

The truth is simple, and inescapable, and I come to it using only the instruction YOU have given me, for which I thank you.

"or a moment after you die. There is no escape."

Unless death is the end. We shall see.

"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

Once again, you quote Scripture at me. You know I have no use for it, no need to understand it, and it is meaningless to me. YOU told me all these things, and yet you continue to quote it at me, pointlessly.

Tell me Justin/God, do you always waste your time so?

H.

Hi Justin .

"I am spiritually fused into Him, and Him into me, and that becomes more so as the work of God in sanctfication goes on."

I'll save Hoo the trouble with this one . So now you say that you and God are one, and therefore that you speak with his voice. This is in direct contradiction to what you have told Hoo and me a number of times. Let's just agree that you think you are God.

"Please don't assume that just because you are separate from God and don't know Him that that means so are Christians."

We never have it is you who restrict the definition of Christian to such a narrow band that you basically exclude everyone else. I don't believe that Jesus died on the cross just to save a mere 144,000 of you. I seriously doubt that you could find 144,000 who could actually agree with you (or even 144 for that matter).

"I can tell you where to find,in the Word of God, the reference to Satan's fall, Isa.14:12 on, but, as you don't believe God, you don't believe His servants, and won't accept the Word of God to be just that, I don't see why you would want to know."

I asked (not Hoo), because you continuously state that the Angels had free will and thus separate the responsibility for the creation of sin away from God. I cannot find that reference, but I can find that God gave only to men free will of all His creation. You cannot accept the consequences of that line of reasoning for it undermines your whole philosophy and put's your God neatly into Hoo's "Sadistic Bastard" category.

"You don't need to understand the Bible in your state, and you don't need anyone to interpret it for you; even if they did you would not understand what they mean."

Then why does the Bible exist at all? If, as you say repeatedly, it matters not a jot what I do in my life, only if God chooses me I shall be delivered from sin and the Devil and be saved. We have already established that God seems to have no criteria whatsoever for His choice. He even takes liars, adulterers and thieves.

"But, as you see yourself as fundamentally good, with the odd bit which may need some modification, you don't think you 'need' Christ, and you cannot be saved."

Neither I nor Hoo have ever claimed to be fundamentally good, just that we are no worse than you or any of your chosen flock, thus proving the capricious nature of your God.

"As for communication; until you are prepared to get off your high horse and cease from instructing God and His servants, and listen to what they say to you, you will NEVER understand."

Oh Justin, you are such a card ! The only reason we have to mount our high horses is to keep up with you on yours. Think on it, we never came here to preach or smugly declare ourselves to be better than the common herd, unlike you.

"Almighty God is speaking to you through me, but you won't listen."

Really? So now you are a prophet too? By the sheer amount of attention we give to your words you cannot deny that we listen. Our perseverance with you also shows that we are trying to understand.

"He is not likely to speak to you directly. It does happen, but rarely."

But just how do you know? I speak with my Gods, to the spirits of the land and of my ancestors daily. What makes your divine experience of greater value than mine? I can no more prove my experiences empirically than you can, but they are very real to me. However, unlike you, I would not have you put to death for consorting with devils and evil spirits. From your own journal we can see that is precisely what you would like to do to people like me after you have executed all the adulterers. I am grateful that people of the same mindset as Hoo rule this country, for they have far more tolerance and love for their fellow man than exists in your heart or philosophy.

"If I am a servant of God then, by divorcing me from God is blaspheming the work of God in me. If I am not a servant of God you had better go away and leave me alone, had you not? And find someone who is a servant of God."

I am quite prepared to believe that you are a servant of your God. None of us have tried to deny that or 'divorce' you from that. I am pretty sure that both the legal and Biblical definitions of blasphemy do not cover this clever little interpretation of yours.

And why would we want to leave you alone to peddle your religious hatred unchallenged? It matters not what you profess to be, only what you do and say.

"There is no Catch22. If God is speaking to you through one of His servants you will know it. If you are not hearing God speak to you, and touch your life, then either the person is not the Lord's servant, or God is not yet speaking to you."

So you have now identified the Catch yourself then. Either you are not the Lord's servant or He is not yet speaking to us. Neither Hoo nor I hear God in your words, only hatred and bigotry, confusion and pain, doubt and fear. I do not hear the words of Jesus the mabon, only the words of Paul the Mithraist from Tarsus, the Roman Tax Collector, the man that never knew Jesus. Why do you not preach 'Love thy neighbour as yourself', 'Suffer the little children' or 'The Good Samaritan'? Perhaps because they show the lie in your sodo-manic hatred?

"I do not restrict God at all. I told you WHAT HE SAYS. He works by His Word. He spoke, and the world was. He speaks through His servants and people are saved. I call that power..........".

And I speak what I hear my Gods say. They say to me "do not hate Justin, help him", "do not take offence at his hatred, for hatred stems from fear, and fear from ignorance, show him the light of his own faith and he could be healed". I call that wisdom.........

Personally I prefer wisdom to power, for the implications of living through power are dominance and subjugation. The implications of living through wisdom are understanding, acceptance and love. I'm pretty sure I know which of those two definitions Jesus the teacher would have chosen. Do you?

"It is nothing to do with me. If God is speaking to you through me, or not, then that is a matter for Him, not me."

Again you shed all responsibility for your actions, for the hatred and intolerance we have seen you preach on this site. Where is the man Justin? The man who swore to his Queen, his Country and his God to uphold the law and who now turns his back on his oaths? Foreswearing is a sin as well you know, as is false pride.

"There is only one way into the kingdom of God. The path is through conviction of sin, and a being brought to Christ by His own work, through His people."

No Justin, by your own words, defined endlessly in answer to the questions of many more besides Hoo and I, the only way into the Kingdom of God is to be chosen by Him upon his capricious whim.

"You are not required to understand anything as I have told you. All you need to see is your utterly rotten state, and that is HIS work to show you. Not a pretty sight, either."

Neat assumption from one who has no view of the state of Hoo or I. By your definition though every living person is in an "utterly rotten state", and is in that state by the work of your God's own angels.

"Almighty God is not a mere man that He needs instruction from men. His people DO NOT look to any mere man for instruction,but to God."

No one here has tried to instruct your God in anything. We have tried to debate with you, tried to gain some clarity from you, challenged your hatred and bigotry with reason and calm words. If you believe that is challenging your God then you must believe yourself to be God.

Perhaps when you realise that we are talking to you, not your God, with whom we have no quarrel, then you will be capable of debating with us in such a way as to serve your God as a preacher. Until then you are just a speaker of hate.

Blessings,
Matholwch the Apostate /|\.

Oh, and by the way Justin/God, since you failed to respond last time:

""If you are not hearing God speak to you, and touch your life, then either the person is not the Lord's servant, or God is not yet speaking to you."
...
I am not hearing God speak to me. I'm sure I'd know if I was. You are not a servant of God, then. Or God is not speaking to me.

Since you and God are one, you will of course be able to tell me WHY God is not speaking to me."

I'm all ears.

(you crack on, btw, Madent, don't mind me)

H.

Madent,

I don't know where you get your information from, but God does not say any such thing in His Word. Yes, you did miss something; the Lord Jesus Himself, and salvation.

Hoovooloo,

I don't tell lies, it is sin, and "the wages of sin is death." And, no, I don't waste my time with those who are deternined not to listen to what they are told and deliberately twist what is said in order to avoid obedience to God.

Hey Madent

Don't you pay no never mind to us old hooters! This is a free fire zone and Justin has proved himself more than capable of handling three or four of us at once. He is a man of God after all and blessed with special powers.

Blessings,
Matholwch the ordinary old hooter /|\.

Hey! Who is on moderation now? Is it Justin or Hoo? No, it can't be Hoo.

In any case.... Hey Mod Gods, leave us alone! There ain't nothing Justin can say that will upset me and the Hoovooloo! We're just too plum ornery to take his points to heart, so let him loose please!

Blessings,
Matholwch, Senior Wrangler, and Lecturer in Recent Runes /|\.

Hoovooloo,

I would say that that is a fair analysis, and for someone so antichrist, a miracle even! God is evidentally not speaking to you through me, the Scripture, or anyone. Until He does you remain in the extremely serious state you are in. God is sovereign. If you think you can overhaul Him with wretched reason, debate, and denial, you are sadly mistaken, you poor man.

Moderation is a blessing to Justin/God, Matholwch, as I explained somewhere else. The posts are hidden by default, until they can be checked. This is, as I've pointed out, a benefit to Justin/God, because it allows the conversation to progress more slowly and to give him time to frame his answers. Not that it seems to help...

And it may well be that you and I have hides thick enough to withstand whatever Justin/God may say, but this is a public website, visible to all, and the BBC have to make sure that nobody else is offended either.

It's not too bad, actually, Justin/God has had very few postings fail to appear. You just need to be patient!

H.

Hi guys

Isn't there a really awful paradox in Justin's beliefs?

I take it on "faith" that you correctly report Justin's desire to have adulterers put to death, yet isn't he a self-confessed adulterer? If under such draconian measures he had been put to death for his crime at the time it was taking place, then he would not have received the salvation he preaches.

That kind of logic must really hurt.

Justin

I get my information from the same location that you do. The King James Version of the Bible. I can give you a list full list of references if you would like them. Would you?

Justin/God:

"I would say that that is a fair analysis, and for someone so antichrist, a miracle even!"

Thank you. You have no idea how gratifying it is to finally have said something you agree is accurate.

"God is evidentally not speaking to you through me, the Scripture, or anyone."

Very true. I have absolutely no argument with you there, we are in 100% agreement.

"Until He does you remain in the extremely serious state you are in."

OK...

"God is sovereign."

OK.

"If you think you can overhaul Him with wretched reason, debate, and denial, you are sadly mistaken, you poor man."

Um.... "overhaul"? Not sure what you mean by that.

In any case, we are agreed that God is NOT speaking to me through you. So, Justin/God, what are you going to do about it?

I cannot help it. Clearly you believe God DOES speak through you, since by your own words, you ARE God, indivisible from him and him from you. So God could not help but speak through you - just not to me.

So I ask again - what are you going to do about it? Are you going to save me, Justin/God? Or are you going to condemn me to the lake of fire, after your little charade of looking in the book of life? I'd like to know, because if I'm destined for eternal torment I might as well try to have as much pleasure as possible while I can, here on earth, wouldn't you agree?

H.

Thank you for looking out for my precious sensibilities, Justin, but I can look out for my own emotional well-being. So why not just answer my very simple, unambiguous question with a very straightforward answer...

Where can I read about Satan and the war in heaven in the Bible?

Madent,

No thanks. You can read the KJV but as you do not know the Author you have no idea what it means, and you can have no better understanding than a pope, or other religious person. You are not a Christian, a disciple of Jesus Christ, as it is fundamentally impossible to follow someone you don't know, and have never met. An unsaved person, and enemy of Christ, has nothing to teach God's people.