h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi and welcome to h2g2!

Reading your Uspace I think that the number of German legal minds just doubled

I hope you enjoy your stay at the guide

Tube

Hello my learned colleague,

it´s always a pleasure to meet a fellow legal eagle.

Are You a lawyer too? Or do You belong to the folks on the other side of the bench (being a judge or public prosecutor)?

By the way – My favourite joke –

A lawyer is arguing with the judge in court: "100.000 $ isn´t nearly enough Your Honour, after all, my client deservers something too.“


What I wouldn´t give for this kind of case (sighing wistfully)!

Tell me more about Your line of work.
Are You aware of any kind of legal interest forum at H2G2?

Yours truly

Bertie Wooster

Same here, same here

Depends on what/whom you call a lawyer. If passing the first bar exam and working on a thesis qualifies me, then yes. I'll be sitting in the Tribunal for this year's Willem C. Vis Moot (A588170) and am involved in the h2g2 Arbiter Scheme (A694118 - feel free to join that one, it's still being developed). Other than that there's precious little going on in regards to law (unless the Italics make up some new rule ) and AFAIK there are very few legal eagles here. Two Bit Trigger Pumping Moron (U35376) is in law enforcement, though.


Have you seen this http://www.recht.li/sys/1912009a.html ... check out section 336 paragraphs 4 to 7

My line of work? International transport law, ATM. What about you?


Are you addicted to h2g2 yet?


Tube

Hello fellow legal mind,
the best way to describe my present line of work is to say, that most cases I´m working on belong to the field of a general practice, though I would very much prefer to be working exclusively in the field of company law.
But – unfortunately – it´s very difficult to find interesting clients in this field, unless You are a member of a big law firm.

With regard to H2G2 being addictive, I must say I see Your point. It is a very interesting place on the web.

I hope the work on Your thesis is going well.
I find it somewhat hard to write about the subject of my thesis in English.
One of the more interesting aspects concerned a tendency in modern German anti-fraud law to make use of legal constructions that could previously only be found in relation to "victimless crimes“ like driving under the influence.
If a drunk drives his car without an accident along a deserted street, there is no victim.
All the same, the driver would be guilty of a criminal offence under German law.

"Victimless crimes“ don´t fit well into the theoretical concepts of German criminal law.
Any kind of behaviour (e.g. the advice to buy a certain kind of shares) can be criminalised by the respective legal constructions, which causes severe constitutional problems.

The modern trend to "victimless crimes“ in German anti-fraud law is quite excessive.
The borderline between legal economic activity and a crimal offense looses distinction, when it becomes irrelevant wheter or not there is victim at all.
The "ultima ratio“ quality of criminal law becomes "diluted“ by reducing the requirements for an offence (e.g. no victim).

Are You German too?
You wrote in Your original message that the number of German legal minds on H2G2 has doubled, now that I´ve joined the clan, but reading Your work on Vis I think that probably English is Your native language. It would be much easier for me to write about legal issues if I could use German law vocabulary.

Bye for now

Bertie Wooster

No, I'm in fact German, while I could claim a certain grasp of the english language the Vis entry went through the editorial process and they corrected any spelling and grammatical errors. So, generally you can type German to me. The difficulty is that, as you might have noticed, the Moderators will remove any posting that contains too much of a language unknown to them. The posting will not be deleted, but will be pending translation which make take some weeks. I should think that one or two legal terms won't hurt it, though.

Yeah, the problem with the big law firms. The interesting cases go there, with international transport law as well... and as well all know they do demand a good state-exam or two.

Thanks! Yes, the thesis is going well... I've been working on that for 12 hours yesterday and a little less today as I had to attend a meeting of the Vis team.

Hmmm ... anti-fraud law as in § 263 StGB or § 246 StGB? Probably § 263 from what you are saying.
Drunk driving, victimless... that would be § 316, not? An abstract "Gefährdungsdelikt" (let's call it "engangerment" for the purpose of this posting )

So there's a trend toward punishing financial endangerment. The § 316 protects secure road traffic as an abtract concept. And If I remember correctly there is no such thing as an abstract protection of "Vermögen", yes, no? So there would indeed be a problem. Especially for those who tell others where to invest their money. Yeah, and the constitutional problem is obvious from that.

But § 263 requires a (financial) loss. Unless one considers the abstract "Vermögens"-endangerment. Hm, I think I can see what you are getting at!



I really need to go to bed. TTFN and TTYL!


Tube

Hello again,

You wrote:

"... if I remember correctly there is no such thing as an abstract protection of "Vermögen" ....


Sorry old chap, but You should have read on in those law books (big grin).
You will find "abstract endangerment crimes“ in anti fraud law (the verbatim translation doesn´t sound quite right, but You´ll know what I mean) e.g in:

§ 264 StGB (Subventionsbetrug)
§ 264a StGB (Kapitalanlagebetrug/Prospektbetrug)
§ 265b StGB (Kreditbetrug)

There are several others at unexpected locations (e.g. § 89 BörsG).

Take a look at § 265a I 1 StGB. The activity as such (just like drunk driving in § 316 StGB) is criminalised. It is irrelevant whether or not there is a victim ("opferloses Delikt“).

Your doubts are very typical for German lawyers. According to our training we expect to see "damage and victims“ when we think about fraud. There is little awareness of how fundamentally anti fraud law has changed in the last 10 to 15 years.

I´m a little pressed for time right now and have to sign off.

Tell me how the work on the thesis is coming along, if You find the time. Don´t forget to relax a little is my advice (and I don´t mean on the Internet).

Bye for now

Bertie Wooster

Hi!

Err... you mean actually *read* the law before saying anything about it?! What is the good of that?



Interesting, I don't think I ever read those fully. Hm, you're right. §264 I 1 for example does not even say anything about money being paid to the offender... that *is* strange! Intersting. Never knew that!

But in § 265a I 1 you have the ones who operate the eg. subway/cinema, they do something for you which they would not have does if you didn't fool them into thinking that you've paid. Their time and expenditure goes without remuneration and thus they are a victim, not?

Maybe I should learn a bit of material law before I go into the Referndariat...

My thesis? Oh, ATM very nicely. Last night I figured out that while according to German law the possession of the Konnossement is relevant for the passing of property of the goods in transit (though nobody really figured out how that is done in a legal-theoretical way over the last 150 years), the possession of the bill of lading is relevant for passing the rights under the contract of carriage according to the Carriage of Goods by Sea Act 1992.

Gotta and hand in a draft on my thesis...

Tschö!
Tube

Hi there,

You are right about § 265a I 1 StGB ....... smile strechting from ear to ear ... that´s why I did not mention § 265a I 1 StGB at all.

But if You look at § 265b StGB You´ll find that legislation decided not to bother with trifling details like "damage and victims" in modern anti faud law while creating a new kind of crime.

But don´t worry ... You could hit hit me over the head with the "Carriage of Goods by Sea Act 1992" and I still wouldn´t know what it is about. Besides, You could write books about what I don´t know about the "bill of lading" ( = Konnossement).

I´ve just looked up "rigorosum" in a dictionary. Apparently the right translation is "PhD viva" though it does sound somewhat odd to me.

Anyway, I hope You´ll manage to pass Yours this year as You intend.

Thinking back to my own experiences I must say the doctorate (according to my dictionary that´s supposed to be the right translation for the German term "Promotion") did take much more time than I expected. My supervising professor had the most interesting ideas when he read my drafts.

How many drafts have You handed in so far.

I spend much time watching the Olympics on TV. Did Your work leave You any spare time.

So long

Bertie Wooster

Hi!
"You are right about § 265a I 1 StGB ....... smile strechting from ear to ear ... that´s why I did not mention § 265a I 1 StGB at all." I mean you wrote:
"Take a look at § 265a I 1 StGB. The activity as such ..." ...?

Yeah, anyway. Let's not fiddle about with the finer points of German law in English...

PhD viva? Sounds like music television for intellectuals... Hmmm, I can't seem to find a sensible translation, though.

Takes more time then expected? For sure! I hope to finish mine this year. But it's a hard bread to chew. One tends to get fed up after so many months. The first draft I handed in so far (I had to change Professors in between) has not brought about any reaction as yet. I'll step on the secretary's toes one of these days. The only way of getting things done.

No, I'm not watching the Olympics as I don't have a TV (and wouldn't even watch them then ). But I have one or three nice books floating about.

Have you had a look at the Arbiter Scheme as yet?


Tube

Hallo old chap,
for various reasons I´ve spent very little time online at H2G2, so it took me a while to get back to Your message.

Reading my own previous messages a little more carefully I see that I did indeed mention § 265a I 1 StGB, though I didn´t mean to. Maybe I just got the numbers mixed up or maybe I missed a typing mistake.
Anyway, the mistake was mine.

You wrote, that You don´t have a TV. Well, not watching TV certainly saves a lot of time, but I guess that I would miss something without it. What kind of book are You interested in (other than those fascinating law books)?

Do You have some feedback from Your supervising Professor yet? I mean, does he like the draft?

So long

Bertie Wooster