h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi Spook,

sorry, you're right, it wasn't a very nice thing to say. But you do tend to bring that kind of thing out in me.

I stick to my claim that you are acting selfishly, though. Perhaps you will understand what i mean if i point to a specific instance of what makes me mention ego:

In the other thread of the same name posted on Ashley's PS, you enumerated 3... well, let's call them requests, rather than demands (although i think the latter better describes the way they were presented)

3 requests, all saying what 'I' want. Not we. I.

This is not an isolated case of seeing things only from your own perspective and blanking valid input from others, but i do think it's a rather good illustration of the ego at work.

in the meantime, i am wondering why you are explaining to people who are trying to do something constructive as a group what *you* think they really *ought* to be doing...

cya
spiff

>>however, the big problem i see is people reading entries in The Post...

Shazz and I speak fairly often about things like this. I contact her when I see a UG entry in her schedule. I then plan it so that it comes on the front page last. For instance, at one point Peregrine's Mole of Woe entry was mined and went into the post at around the same time. It was serialized, so I asked Shazz when the serialization would be over. She graciously provided me with the information and I adjusted.

And there just isn't a conflict. The Post doesn't lay claim to the AWW, they just don't use it. I haven't seen CAC in the AWW as much lately, but as you can tell from Spiff's comment, CAC doesn't seem to mind.

>>there there are 10 people commenting there.

And ten people or so have managed to comment on *every* entry. There are over 300 entries in the AWW.

>>the same 10 people for every entry, with the same views.

This is wrong. The community *is* commenting in the AWW more. It's not just miners, and ten people is actually pretty diverse. All of our miners are brilliant and each is different from the next. They all volunteer for this, and I'm insulted that you are saying that they don't have enough perspective- it doesn't matter. We either say how we like an entry, how it could be improved, ask questions, etc. Views rarely come into play.

Spiff - i was stating what 'I' wanted to see that would make me happy with the UG on h2g2. Ashley confirmed they would all be followed, criteria which IMO made the UG a fair group. it wasn't selfish, i was looking at the wider community. let's look at them:

1. i want the community involved in AWW, not just the UG miners, so advertisement of the AWW for the community before the UG starts official mining may be a good idea to get things going, perhaps on the front page?


should not the UG also want the wider community involved so that it is not just a 10 man operation? is not the idea of the UG to get the community back into Alternative Writing and make it used by the community? it seems to me this should be one of the same aims the UG should have.


2. i want all groups to have equal freedom to pick any entries for their groups at any time


from my previous experiences in the AWW since the UG began poting i did not feel this was so due to the comments of UG miners. now that i have been told it is so, i am happy, and this is fairety for all groups, so every one has the same mining freedoms. selfish? no, equality, with the personal objective of making sure my own group has the freedom to use AWW.


3. i don't want the new name of AWW to have the word 'UnderGuide' in it as that puts focus on that group


i would say UG miners wanting 'Underguide' in the forum name is selfish. i don't want 'Spook' or 'Spaced Out' in the title or anything. that would be selfish. i simply want the forum to contain a neutral name, not putting emphasis on any.



now, which of these 3 points is really that selfish? you say i put "I" and not "we", yet what would "we" represent. can the UG really speak for the whole community? NO! can i? NO! i can only look out for my own group and for equality in AWW, which is what i am doing.


>"This is not an isolated case of seeing things only from your own perspective and blanking valid input from others, but i do think it's a rather good illustration of the ego at work."

, disagreeing with the fact that that was what i was doing, which i wasn't btw, i would just love to see some actual examples of this from other places.

>"in the meantime, i am wondering why you are explaining to people who are trying to do something constructive as a group what *you* think they really *ought* to be doing..."

i'm not. i am simply giving my opinions and making sure that what they aren't doing is damaging h2g2 and other Alternative Writing groups, and making sure all Alternative Writing Groups, SOG, UG, Post, CAC, and any others that may be made in the future, and the same freedom to use AWW.

now, please point out the egotisticalness of this. please point out the selfishness. please point out how i am ignoring comments.

spook

>>i want the community involved in AWW, not just the UG miners, so advertisement of the AWW for the community before the UG starts official mining may be a good idea to get things going, perhaps on the front page?

NOTHING IS STOPPING YOU FROM PARTICIPATING!! NOTHING IS STOPPING THE COMMUNITY FROM PARTICIPATING! That's like saying that we want the AWW to just be UG Miners. This is like the scouts scheme, we want the miners to be in the forum a lot, but we want the community to help comment. It's working too.

>>i want all groups to have equal freedom to pick any entries for their groups at any time

Go crazy picking. The post and CAC can pick anything at any time as well. I don't think they will, but they can. the SOG can have every entry in the AWW, spook. Nothing is stopping you from doing that.

>>i don't want the new name of AWW to have the word 'UnderGuide' in it as that puts focus on that group.

Did I not just point out that the editors don't want the word UnderGuide in it for exactly the same reason?

The egotisicalness of this is summed up for me in the sentence "i don't want 'Spook' or 'Spaced Out' in the title or anything. that would be selfish."

jodan, maybe i didn't point this out clearly enough, but i was speaking to Spiff!

This is a public forum, anything you post here can be read and replyed to by anyone. If you wish to speak to spiff alone then email him.

The re-write has only minor changes, nothing actually changes the meaning, it just stops you looking quite so arragant (sp?), mainly.

Tango

Hey now, cool them boots,

The whole point about commenting in the AWW is to make writers feel that they are being read, and get them talking about other people's material, and get some momentum going. It is understandable that this has been limited to a relatively small group over the first 6 months; but we are hoping that activity will promote activity. And there are signs that this may well be the case. Hope springs eternal.

Anyway, my point about your 'demands beginning with 'I want...' was really in the presentation of what you were saying, not in the content. I may or may not agree with the content, but what i'm getting at is that you quite often come across (on this side of the screen) as rude and self-centred.

Don't bother to ask me not to call you 'names' on account of that comment. You asked me, so i'm telling you where i'm coming from. You'll notice that Ashley also felt that you were rather rude in your reply to him over on that other thread. I hope one day you might chill out and open your eyes to how other people are thinking. I'm not holding my breath, though.

As for providing other instances, I don't want to get into an "I'm right, you're wrong" conversation. I think you know full well some specific occasions when i've levelled similar comments at you. Let's not go down that road here.

cya
spiff
*relieved that we have your 'permission' to continue doing something that many people support and just *one* person seems to have taken issue with.

Spiff, you seem a bit more stressed out then me. I mean, all i did was voice a view opinions and concerns and POVs and BOOM!, it's like the whole world are after me. i mean, come on Spiff, you are just as bad as me, maybe even worse. i've already opened my eyes to other peoples' perspectives, i'm already chilled, it seems that it is everyone else not understanding my outsider opinions and views.

if you want me to be rude, this is rude:

"spiff, shut your bloody face! i've had enough of you and your ignorant comments and your attacking me again and again whenever you have a different POV to me."

that would be rude. and the comments would have been out of anger and not chilled. have any of my comments been like that? nope. while you have insulted me and accused me of being selfish, rude, self-centered, arrogant, etc i have not insulted you in the slightest, and all my comments have been replies to those points you made.

now, you accuse me of being self-centered. this is self-centered:

"this underguide thing is really rubbish. i mean, my spaced out guide has masses more enries then that, it should start getting some front page coverage. the underguide has just been wasting time because i know that everything else is just way better and it hasn't got the quality i know h2g2 needs."

i have not said anything like this. i have voiced my POVs, but have not claimed superior, ultimate know-how, nor have i said my Spaced Out Guie is the best thing since sliced bread and should be featured on the front page.

now, ignorant of other people's points. if i was, i would say:

"what utter nonsense Spiff. you have no clue what you are talking about. don't you understand what i am saying? etc etc etc"


now, my point in all this is that while you have been critiscising me and insulting me i have been calm, relaxed and have not replied with anger or insults.

in fact, i have but made one comment with anger, and that was to Ashley in a thread i unsubscribed from after posting to as i did not want to continue posting when angry at annoyed.

perhaps you should stop critiscising me Spiff and act with the same polite manner i give to you, because i could come up with twice as many critiscisms about you as you have so far about me.

spook

okey dokey Spokey,

I don't know why i'm getting myself into this *again*, but...


>>Spiff, you seem a bit more stressed out then me. I mean, all i did was voice a view opinions and concerns and POVs and BOOM!, it's like the whole world are after me. i mean, come on Spiff, you are just as bad as me, maybe even worse. i've already opened my eyes to other peoples' perspectives, i'm already chilled, it seems that it is everyone else not understanding my outsider opinions and views.<<

- "It's everyone else that's wrong, not me!"... how endearing.

*RHETORICAL QUESTION - btw, what do you mean by "just as bad as me, if not worse"?



>>if you want me to be rude, this is rude:

"spiff, shut your bloody face! i've had enough of you and your ignorant comments and your attacking me again and again whenever you have a different POV to me."

that would be rude.<<

- Well, that's just great. Although i think in the 'being rude' stakes, i could probly do a bit better if need be. But do you think that putting it in ""s makes it ok? What's that all about?



>> and the comments would have been out of anger and not chilled. have any of my comments been like that? nope. while you have insulted me and accused me of being selfish, rude, self-centered, arrogant, etc i have not insulted you in the slightest, and all my comments have been replies to those points you made.<<

- err, well done for picking up on it, but i failed to mention 'arrogant' - you added that yourself.



>>
now, you accuse me of being self-centered. this is self-centered:

"this underguide thing is really rubbish. i mean, my spaced out guide has masses more enries then that, it should start getting some front page coverage. the underguide has just been wasting time because i know that everything else is just way better and it hasn't got the quality i know h2g2 needs."
i have not said anything like this. i have voiced my POVs, but have not claimed superior, ultimate know-how, nor have i said my Spaced Out Guie is the best thing since sliced bread and should be featured on the front page.
<<

- Well, actually, i think that is *exactly* what you want to say. Course, i'm just reading tween the lines. Come to think of it, your whole '8 cons vs 4 pros proves i'm right' paragraph does kinduv say the same thing.



>>now, ignorant of other people's points. if i was, i would say:

"what utter nonsense Spiff. you have no clue what you are talking about. don't you understand what i am saying? etc etc etc"<<

- This is rather similar to *exactly* what you replied to Ashley earlier on.



>>now, my point in all this is that while you have been critiscising me and insulting me i have been calm, relaxed and have not replied with anger or insults.

in fact, i have but made one comment with anger, and that was to Ashley in a thread i unsubscribed from after posting to as i did not want to continue posting when angry at annoyed.<<

- yes, well, congratulations on your magnanimous attitude on that one.



>>perhaps you should stop critiscising me Spiff and act with the same polite manner i give to you, because i could come up with twice as many critiscisms about you as you have so far about me.<<

- Yes, it's quite true that you have been polite to me. But I don't think i've said anything gratuitous. I stand by my comments.

As for criticising me - Fire away! As i said earlier, I'm not 'insulting' you (there is a theory that an insult can only injure if it is accepted by the recipient as valid) - I'm telling you what i think about the postings you have made regarding your appraisal of the pros and cons of the way things are going with the AWW.

but if you fancy having a pop, i think it highly unlikely that *anything* you post could possibly hurt my feelings. And maybe i'll learn something about myself from what you have to say.

cya
spiff

This post has been removed.

More evidence against the claim "Other Alternative Writing Schemes not taken into due consideration": for a stretch of at least five or six CAC columns in a row, jwf promoted and gave links to both SOG and UG discussions. He was also active in many of the early discussions about how the UG might work. Apparently he did not feel like UG were stepping on other toes; quite the contrary, he took time and column space to promote UG and SOG as if they were positive things!

Since CAC and the Post have not complained, it seems that the only problem must be the overlap between UG and SOG. However, I don't understand why overlap is a problem at all for SOG. I thought that all entries were accepted to SOG without restrictions. If an entry has already run in the Post or CAC, then it can still be used in SOG, right? Why is it any different with UG? Presumably if an author submitted an entry to SOG after it had already run in the UG, then you would accept it. So what difference does it make whether UG picks something first, or whether you find it in Peer Review or AWW or anywhere?

Entries that are run in more than one place would only gain more exposure. They aren't watered down or harmed after more forums promote them. The only problem is the same one that is found in professional publishing: an article's first appearance is more valuable. Any publication which publishes the same article later might be seen as missing the "scoop" or using stale material.

So it appears that your main complaint is that your forum, the Spaced-Out Guide, will not be as highly regarded by readers if you have to compete with a forum like UG getting front-page exposure. Sorry, but that's competition. If you don't like the UG system developed under guidance from h2g2 staff, then give your feedback to h2g2 staff about their consent to refocus AWW as a forum for the Underguide. Just because the UG will be stiff competition is no reason to ask for it to be disbanded, any more than you should ask for The Post or CAC to be disbanded. Because those are also competing for the attention of your readers.

>>Apparently he did not feel like UG were stepping on other toes; quite the contrary, he took time and column space to promote UG and SOG as if they were positive things!

Same thing with the Post, yes? Wasn't there something called 'Focus On...' on the post and the UG status report?

Spook wrote: "i would just like to point out at this stage how the UG are using a yahoogroup not on h2g2 to discuss this, instead of using h2g2 where other people can also join the discussion, showing how they have taken a position of power and now 10 researchers will decide what they want and will get it. is this representing h2g2 at it's best?"

UG's offsite email group is similar to those established by official h2g2 volunteer schemes like the ACEs and scouts (probably gurus and subs as well, but I don't know). If it's okay for them to have offsite discussions, shouldn't it be okay for UG to have offsite discussions?

"Now, if i posted an acceptance message to any entry in AWW, i'm sure the UG would come straight up to me and "Wait a minute, we want that entry, it ain't been there long enough, let's wait a while before it's picked first." i know because that's what i got last time i commented on one."

Could you please give a link to that thread? It doesn't sound like something that UG miners ought to be doing. Lucky for us, the situation probably didn't happen the way you characterized it, any more than "certain researchers took it upon themselves to push me to the sidelines," when in actuality you quit after a concensus of miners disagreed with your suggestion.

"the UG is functioning with a small amount of researchers doing the commenting and mining on all the entries."

Now we're guilty of some crime because we can't attract enough people to join us yet? We should have dozens of volunteers even before we've started? Absurd. This is like a job opening I read about the other day: "entry-level technical writing position. Some experience preferred." They expect people to be born with experience! Apparently Underguide miners are abusing our new power unless we spring into existence with a pre-fabricated army of 50 volunteers.

The group isn't really *that* active anyway. Most messages are for things that only miners should know our small announcements that are also posted onsite. The community doesn't discuss this things because-

a- We aren't developing anymore. The decisions are made by the editors, Ashley and only occasionally the miners.
b- I don't think the community would care to comment on our menial tasks- which is mostly what the message are right now.

>>Lucky for us, the situation probably didn't happen the way you characterized it

Now, that's about the size of it. Spook was right-ish this time. I can't find the conversation though... I'm looking for it right now.

Found it. F74130?thread=292911 It isn't *exactly* the way spook characterized it, but he got the jist of it.

I give you my deepest heartfelt apologies to you and your family. We made a mistake (Once, as far as I can remember) but to be fair, the objectives and details of the UG were hazy even five weeks ago.

Oh, and you can have the entry.

"but he got the jist of it"



Ben
*who is aware that it is probably a good thing that this all blew up while she was off-line for a week or so*