h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

A1152550 - add opinions and thoughts please. i hope people agree, no doubt people will disagree, i will respond to all comments, suggestions, questions and opinions given.

spook

Wait... apart from me disagreeing with the name...

These miners pluck 'fiction' out of the AWW and deem it to be worthy of their recognition?

they don't just pluck 'fiction', they pluck 'alternative writing', which basically means fiction, poems, diary entries etc etc from AWW. the entries are then meant to go to Polishers, who are like Sub-editors, who edit the entries, the entries are thn gonna get a status and are gonna appear on the front page. this is basically meant to be the EG of AW.

i hope that makes things clearer for you!

spook

Oh okay...

'UnderGuide' sounds derogitory to me though. You might as well call it the flea market.

well, it basically is in a way. The Flea Market, before the clean up , conatined a lot of AW entries from the olden days. If submitted to the AWW, the scheme could quite easily have been picking these up and putting them on the front page!

!!!!!

It annoys me immensely that you're presenting this as fact, when it's merely a twisted opinion. You're also minimizing the contributions of the miners, who have helped keep the AWW busy. The miners have been made aware of this.

I'm going to respond to this and unsubscribe.

>>UG volunteers act as if they control the review forum, which is official a pond of entries for ALL Alternative Writing groups to fish in

We aren't renaming it the UnderGuide Review Forum BECAUSE of this. It's important that CAC, SOG and the UG can live peacefully in the new forum, but yes, we will be doing most of the work and we get what we deserve spook. In your time in the SOG and as a miner, you commented on an extremely small amount of entries, or suggested they be put into the SOG.

How is "Entries begin to receive multiple exposures" a con?

>>Entries in AWW start receiving judgement of quality for the UG

We don't plan to reject them, but yes some opinion is required.

>>it doesn't take a rocket scientest to figure out that there are 5 pros and 8 cons

You didn't list all of the pros, and in fact you miscounted. You listed 4 pros.

>>UG has been in talk for months, and has not done anything to date.

We're up in early September spook. You'd know that if you hadn't quit.

>>but left the UG when i was not able to obtain a position of power due to my fight for the best of h2g2 being unpopular

This is so unbelievably selfish and rude, I don't even want to reply to it.

Spook, you aren't going to stop the UG. This whole thing is obviously just a ploy to either annoy the UG or do have some sort of immatuer revenge.

I'll have you know I'm planning to resign my post temporarily. We'll see if I follow through after this...

Spook gives an incomplete and one-sided description of the UG. We discussed how to run the UG for months with lots of input and feedback from h2g2 staff. In the course of that, I don't remember if it was UG members or h2g2 staff who suggested that AWW be turned into a review forum devoted to the Underguide. Another way you could look at it was that the AWW was being phased out and that a review forum devoted to the Underguide would be opened in its place.

Several months ago before the UG began, very few people were using AWW compared with the number who use Peer Review. Some people started a conversation about what to do with AWW, whether to close it down or modify it -- that's the conversation that gave birth to the Underguide. In the last several months, there has been much more activity in AWW as a direct result of UG miners giving feedback there. Spook characterized the Underguide as not doing anything lately. I would characterize that as *horse-hockey*. We've been ridiculously active mining and polishing guide entries behind the scenes, but we have not gone live yet. Just because you haven't seen the results yet does not mean we've been idle.

To imply that the Underguide has stolen AWW is to ignore how closely Ashley and the h2g2 staff have been watching the developments with the UG and discussing every step with us. Why not complain to Ashley instead of complaining about the Underguide?

Meanwhile, it really causes no harm to SOG or The Post or AGG/GAG/CAC if the AWW becomes a review forum devoted to the Underguide. There is a page that we told spook about where entries will be noted after they are moved out of the Underguide review forum. (Basically this would be the entries that have been rejected by UG.) Instead of searching for entries in AWW, groups like SOG or The Post or CAC could find them in this rejection area. We heard no complaints from the Post or CAC! If I remember correctly, jwf or tonsil (from CAC) had said they would still find good stuff from the things rejected by UG, so I assumed that meant they might search for entries in that area where entries rejected by UG would go.

It's not that the UG is doing anything to harm SOG or the "community" or any of these other forums. What has essentially happened is that spook did not get his way, and since he sees his way as the only possible way to do things, then he proclaims that the community is going to be harmed by UG. It's untrue and an unfair accusation against the UG.

We've also worked closely with The Post and AGG/GAG/CAC to ensure that we were not stepping on anyone's toes. I think we were very tolerant of spook's venture with the SOG, in spite of the way he seemed to be running down the UG while he was still a member of the UG. At one point, he demanded that things be set up a certain way so that all entries rejected by UG would automatically be identified as "accepted to SOG". When the concensus among UG miners indicated that we didn't want to do that, he quit the UG, and obviously has been brooding about it since then. This is the background that shows why spook would write an editorial denigrating the Underguide and trying to pump up the Spaced-Out Guide.

"Although I may personally have problems with the certain attitudes of certain UG Volunteers, this entry is not directed at them in any way, but at the scheme itself which seems to be accepted as 'The Bets Way' by the Editors who have not looked at other ways of dealing with Alternative Writing but have gone with the first idea that a few researchers were behind."

We discussed and debated for months, until we were blue in the face, about how to put this together. I would invite anyone who thinks that UG miners went with "the first idea that a few researchers were behind" should read only the first few hundred messages on "Why is AWW still such a dead-end" thread, where the Underguide idea began, and where much of the early discussion took place. F55683?thread=231192

I hope anyone who has read spook's diatribe about the UG will read what we've set up at A1103329 and judge for themselves. Constructive criticism and feedback is usually well received by miners, so please let us know what you think. Demands and threats to quit and sour grapes might not go over as well.

Disappointedly,
Deidzoeb

Jodan, I still don't understand why it's a problem to give the AWW a name that would indicate it's devoted to UG. At one point back in discussions, it seemed like a foregone conclusion that AWW was going to be devoted to UG. More recently miners discussed whether it might offend other groups to rename AWW, but I don't remember any complaints from people at the Post or from CAC.

Hi Deidzoeb.

>>"the first idea that a few researchers were behind"

Yes, this is indeed not true. The processes and ideas have changed dramatically in recent months so that they will work when we really get going.

As proof that we're ready to go up at any time, see C1233 and consider that we've accepted ten entries.

Oh, and we aren't using that page for moves anymore. I email moves to Ashley now. And I don't think I'll be forwarding them to you after the way you attacked the UG here. And before you jump on this as an example of how the UG isn't cooperating with the other guides, it's incredibly unfair and personal. I'll just have to live with that.

We've been extremely open in communication between the Post and CAC. I don't think they have a problem with the UG. The SOG is the only one with a problem.

Respectfully,

Hi again

>>but I don't remember any complaints from people at the Post or from CAC.

We didn't ask them Perhaps it would be a good idea to? I assumed they wouldn't like the name UnderGuide in the title.

We can discuss this in the group if you like. GTB and I prefer AR or APR, but we're happy to hear the case for URF

Hi Jodan,

In post #10, did you mean for part of that to be directed to spook? I didn't attack the UG, did I?

Sorry I was behind-the-times on my understanding of how entries would be moved. At one point, we were talking about that "Grim Reaper" system or whatever it's called, so that any miner or any researcher could suggest moves within the review forums.

Later,
Deidzoeb

Right again. Better to discuss that on the Miner email group.

No, I don't think you attacked it

I believe I emailed the group saying this was the new system, but just make sure email me from now on

i would just like to point out at this stage how the UG are using a yahoogroup not on h2g2 to discuss this, instead of using h2g2 where other people can also join the discussion, showing how they have taken a position of power and now 10 researchers will decide what they want and will get it. is this representing h2g2 at it's best?

The Underguide developed by a small number of researchers getting the majority and having what they wanted. for someone like me, who has always pushed for fairness and equqality, this obviously shows none. The Underguide, who has so far not done anything, but claim to have 'unofficially' dealt with 10 entries, is taking control of a Forum used by many. the SOG has around 50 entries so far. The Post, incaculable. The AGG, loads. Now the UG is trying to push them to the sidelines and take control.

I created the SOG months ago when i realised that the UG would most likely not fulfill it's potential and when certain researchers took it upon themselves to push me to the sidelines. I haven't commented on many entries in AWW, Jodan, because i have a life outside h2g2 which includes coursework, exams, holiday's away, etc etc etc. Now, if i posted an acceptance message to any entry in AWW, i'm sure the UG would come straight up to me and "Wait a minute, we want that entry, it ain't been there long enough, let's wait a while before it's picked first." i know because that's what i got last time i commented on one.

Now, i will be posting a message to Ashley's space after i have posted this message informing him of the article, and pushing my feelings that the UG is not beneficial to the community.

spook

ps. i will correct errors now
pps. multiple exposure is bad because if someone reads it in one place they have no incentive to read it again so the entry that appears on the Front Page after it appeared in The Post will not be read much and will not receive much feedback.
ppps. the UG is functioning with a small amount of researchers doing the commenting and mining on all the entries. instead of mining and trying to get control you should be advertising the AWW and encouraging comment.

Hi there Spook,

Oh dear, i can already here you thinking, "Hmph, that cursed Spiff has always had it in for me! I bet he's here to insult me and misunderstand my genius!"

Well, i can't help that.

I do, however, have a few rather negative comments for you concerning this rather unpleasant little entry that you have launched into Ask h2g2. Incidentally, it will be interesting to see what, if any, comments it gleans from researchers who come to it without prior knowledge or partisan leanings.

Well, some of my gripes with your analysis of the situation have already been raised in this thread. but not all. I agree with much of what Jodan and Deizob have said, though there does seem to be some confusion as to exactly how the UG is currently set to function.

You say:

>>Entries commented on by similar people, community not getting into the AWW<<

yet as Deiz has said, the AWW was dead, and the whole point of what has been dubbed the UnderGuide was to get some action going in there. Renamed or not. And the good news is that over time, as people have had feedback for their own offerings, they have taken the trouble to comment on other stuff in there. This inevitably takes time, but the ball is actually perceptibly rolling, even if it could not quite be said to be hurtling along just yet.

Meanwhile, what good does the SOG do for the AWW or any other forum on h2g2? It is, once again, just a selection of entries that you are hunting/gathering.



>>Entries need no skill of writing or work to gain status, but can simply be written thoughts<<

And yet you claim that the whole point about the SOG (aka 'A collection of stuff that Spook has collected in one place on h2g2) is that it accepts absolutely ANYTHING. Somewhat contradictory, i feel.



>>Other Alternative Writing Schemes not taken into due consideration<<

As far as AggGagCac is concerned, i think it is revealing that 2 out of the 4 most recent 'editors' of the CAC column are involved in the UG. Although i personally have been sadly unproductive on that front for some time. But the point is that we only got together and created the AggGag page for EXACTLY THE SAME REASONS as we are now trying to encourage the UG - to promote non-EG writing on h2g2. I believe jwf has even considered conglommeration with the UG so that it might become a showcase of what's up for selection... not sure how that will work out.
But it is worth mentioning that the motivation was the same, and the support from the editors was coming from the same desire to help make the site more welcoming to non-encyclopoedia type writing.

Both these projects had one thing going for them that your SOG does not; co-operation and discussion. You just want to be Editor-in-Chief-for-life of your own project, on your own, and be recognised as he-to-whom-we-are-eternally-grateful because only you have the insight to recognise the 'bets' of h2g2.

We want to discuss entries and talk about writing with people who like to write and talk about writing.



>>UG volunteers act as if they control the review forum, which is official a pond of entries for ALL Alternative Writing groups to fish in<<

Where did you get that from? Nobody is stopping you from getting in there and getting involved. And please spare me the sarcasm lavished on someone else who said as much in this thread.



>>AWW page will contain a UG focus that takes away from other groups<<

What other groups are we talking about here? The Post eds are more than happy about the UG getting a spot on the Front Page for one worthy entry per week, whether it has formerly graced the pages of The Post or not. Same goes for CAC... which just leaves, Spook's Own Guide (I assume that is what SOG stands for)



>>Entries begin to receive multiple exposures<<

What's wrong with that exactly? One problem with The Post is that, although it is archived, it is still quite difficult to just dip in and find the item that you just fancy reading at a given moment. AggGag have categorised archives, and at the end of the day, this is more what the UG is to be based on. But you have to *know* to go look for those archives, whereas if the entry has 'Underguide selection' or some such marker in the title, then it will come up in an h2g2 search and be recognisable for what it is - a non-EG entry on the subject you searched for.



<<Entries in AWW start receiving judgement of quality for the UG<<

Well, as i said earlier, you can't have it both ways - you claim as a con that "Entries need no skill of writing or work to gain status", then this... hmm.



>>The UG requires changes to the h2g2 website<<

well, nobody involved is in any position to 'demand' anything from the h2g2 team; but the Eds *want* something along these lines - ages ago Mina was trying to get support for some way of recognising non-EG material, but didn't get enough response to move on with it. Now that some members of the community have made some proposals, Ashley has been very supportive. What's wrong with that?



Well, i didn't intend to get so long winded about it all. Especially since was absent for the first 6 months of this year when lots of effort was being put into making the scheme work. But your attitude in producing this sickeningly selfish, innaccurate and impertinent account of things as they are not, frankly got my goat!

*deleted personal appraisal of Spook's irksome personality traits*

I know you think i've 'got it in for you', Spook, and to a certain extent, this is true, coz almost every time you post something it irks me. This is true of NO OTHER RESEARCHER on h2g2. Just you. As i've said in the past, i think it's a shame, coz you clearly have a brain in there... it just has trouble by-passing your ego.

*sigh*
spiff

I don't think Spook got his meaning across very well in that article, so i have had a quick go at rewriting it. It still contains the same information, and the same conclusions, but i hope it will stimulate less flaming and more constructive debate. Please read it here: A1153027.

Tango

the following reply is to Spiff, and anyone else who reads it:

hey hey, i don't have an ego, well, not true, everyone has an ego, but mine ain't that big, probably a pretty small one overall. before you judge the hiddenness of my brain, let me clear up a few things:

firstly, the AWW. yes it was dead, yes it is being commented on by miners, but what does that mean? it means that instead of 0-3 max people commenting there there are 10 people commenting there. the same 10 people for every entry, with the same views. where does the comunity come into this? where does the mixture of different views and perspectives come into this? the UG are doing a good job, yes, but they are missing the point, which is that they should be going around the community trying to get people involved in AWW, trying to get people to check out the entries and comment.

you claim i am being hypocritical, saying entries not written with skil should get into the SOG and not the UG? well, here is the difference:

The SOG, which btw stands for Spaced Out Guide, is a collection of original entries where any entry is accepted to become a part of this guide which at some point people will hopefully start to read and enjoy the entries off.

The UG is a collection of quality entries that receive an official status and promotion on the front page.

if the SOG had an official status and entries on the front page then i would push for quality. however, i do not, i push for entries of any kind to help motivate people to write and submit entries to AWW, providing all those UG people with quality entries to mine. that is what i do for the AWW, i encourage writers and provide acceptance. the community should be providing comment, and the Ug should be mining the best.

now, the reason i do not believe other schemes are taken into consideration is this:

1. presently, the UG e-mail Ashley to tell him to remove certain entries. this should change.
2. the UG miners are in discussion (off site) about the name of the review forum, and some believe 'Underguide' should be in the name, which it shouldn't if it is for all
3. the UG miners act as if it is their forum, and this view is simply from experiences in AWW with certain miners.

as i will say, perhaps for the first time, my point is that the UG is not doing the best thing for h2g2. there are many solutions that can be used to improve the UG to make it better for h2g2, but the feedback i am getting is that the UG is gonna go on with these problems.

now, the problems with multiple exposure is that people have already read the entry at first so they don't read it again. now, this doesn't effect the SOG or CAC, as CAC shows entries in a rough form, and the SOG isn't that much read or it's entries publicised. however, the big problem i see is people reading entries in The Post, then a couple of weeks later they appear on the Front Page. with the majority of people seeing it in the post it doesn't get that much feedback from being on the front page. not a major problem i will admit, but it's something to be wary of.

, i think that's the main bits. perhaps i didn't put the views across very well, but hey, it did what i wanted off it, it got a bit of reaction, and hopefully the points i am trying to make will come through. but not through an ego, but through a bad presentation.

spook

ps. Spiff, i always enjoy a good ol' conflict in POVs, just don't insult me with comments about ego or anything, ok? cause that's the only insult you really gave in your post and it wasn't needed.

Tango - thanks! i can't tell the difference, but i'm short sighted so hey!

Verc - if you're reading this thread, i just wrote a load of replies and a long one to Spiff so i'll reply to the view of yours on the entry which i haven't yet replied to later today!

spook