This is the Message Centre for Arpeggio - Keeper, Muse, Against Sequiturs, à propos of nothing in particular
Invented Post - Thanks for the reply
Woodpigeon Started conversation Jul 2, 2001
I hope you don't mind me replying to you on your home page, as I don't really think that the "invented" forum was the best place for me to reply. I just wanted people to be creative, and I was dissappointed the way the conversation seemed to drift towards sensitive topics that upset other people, including yourself.
When I read through the posts over the weekend, and I saw the post on Irish abuse rates, I reacted angrily, because Duncan "Spearcarrier" Jones is living in Ireland, and I felt that he was being attacked because of that fact. I felt it was being personalised a bit. On reading your reply to me, I think I may have taken this up wrong and that it might have been a co-incidence, and if so, apologies.
I am not going to defend some of the tragic cases of abuse which have emerged in our country over the past few years, and if the statistic you quoted is true, I can't argue with you. I am just not aware of this statistic. So, it was news to me that we were top of the league.
Your statistics lead me to think that if general abuse rates are as high as you have said, and if Ireland tops the EU league, then one in every two or three male adults in this country should be abusers. Living in this country all my life, my experience of people here does not accord with this view. Child abuse disgusts and upsets Irish people as much as anywhere else, and there have been solid efforts to increase the level of awareness and reporting, and to educate young children on right and wrong adult behaviour. Also, as a result of the recent scandals amongst institutional carers, nobody in a position of authority is trusted blindly anymore, and so people in authority who tried something like that would not get away with it for very long.
This country is by no means perfect - any newspaper will correct me on this point - it's just that it's not that widespread among the adult population, and it is still a relatively safe place to bring up children. If it wasn't I would leave for the sake of my son.
I am no expert on these things, and I don't have any knowledge of research studies. I am just trying to bring my son up as best as I can. I just wanted to explain to you why I felt annoyed in my post. I thank you again for your reply.
CR
Invented Post - Thanks for the reply
Arpeggio - Keeper, Muse, Against Sequiturs, à propos of nothing in particular Posted Jul 2, 2001
CR~
I am so glad you brought this here. The original, creative idea of the thread was a good one, but once something's been polluted with something as volatile as 'eugenics' it's not really likely to get back on track... very sad.
I honestly haven't a clue where most people live. I've been here at h2g2 about 6 weeks, and am starting to work out from times of day, which side of which ocean, roughly. I had a couple of disagreements with Duncan, but they seemed, to me, relatively good-natured (relative to how ill-natured some of them became). He said he was playing 'Devil's advocate', on the 'fish' issue - which I admit I should have thought out all the possible ramifications before saying it, but being a seminary graduate and living as I do in the US Bible Belt , I thought it was more harmless than it was - and that conflict went away fairly fast and less obnoxiously than some.
On the 'who should be allowed to breed' thing, I agreed with many of Duncan's positions. I was very upset by his 'actions of a few hundreds' remark, because it's thinking like that which allows the problem to fester so.... But it never crossed my mind nor would it have done, to attack him through nationality, or any other such thing. That's irrelevant. It was his totally distorted facts, and nothing else, that made me upset. He seems like a decent sort, and I'm sorry we had to meet under such unhappy circumstances.
What you said about the one in three adult males in Ireland actually does hold true; they aren't all molesters and abusers. The breakdown of child molesters is 30% female, 70% male, and the average child molester *who is caught* has molested upwards of 60 children. It is not evenly distributed. There's the twisted old man who molests all 32 of his grandkids, and the bent schoolteacher and part-time Satan-worshipper, and that is how so many kids are abused, and yet society is NOT choking with perverts. (Not that there aren't plenty, or that one could tell by looking. )
As a person who's done a fair bit of sociopsychology, I'm inclined to put Ireland's unenviable top position in child-abuse down to a couple of fairly straightforward, but deep-rooted cultural dysfunctions.
1) The sxxt rolls downhill principle: Ireland has a history of oppression that competes with any country, to my mind. Parts of the country are still at war, and the wounds are deep. The Celts of Ireland are close-kin to the Arya people of India (Eire, Arya both meaning 'noble') as it happens, who are my mother's folk. There is a spiritual, soul feeling, about the land, and how she's been torn up, that I remember feeling from my mother and her family about the British creation called 'Pakistan'. When your land and people have been sat on so long, dignity rebels, but with nowhere to go, it comes out as violence. The violence of the British against the Irish, and of the Bosses against the workers, and the pressure to keep up, as a European country, and what happens? The stronger take it out on the weaker. Ireland is top of the bashed wives list, too, or was, last I looked. Himself comes home and it doesn't take too long for him to find a reason to lose his temper... she screams at the kids, the kids quarrel and ultimately the loser kicks the dog. The same thing happens in all societies, but a small island with a long history of oppression is fertile ground for rage to be dumped by the stronger onto the weaker.
2) 'A man's home is his castle': Where people believe that, and don't question how a man or woman behaves in his/her home, bad things grow and fester, and go unspoken, and there is a family history cycle to incest - you grow up to do as was done unto you - the more secrecy, the more danger the cycle will not be broken.
3) Large, and extended families: if it exists in the family, it affects a lot more folk than it would do, if there were not 8 kids with 6 grandkids each, and grandad has a fondness for young kids. They're around, and he's the family patriarch, and this is 'normal' for that family. Then, a generation break out of the same valley and move all over, and take it with them. This is toxic.
And finally, and I'll try to say this sensitively but it's not easy,
4) Roman Catholicism: particularly the guilt and shame aspects, which prevent women and children from coming forward and saying anything, because they feel they're to blame, and they are sinners, and that not even God can love them any more. It's true in every Roman Catholic country, and it is *worse* among Fundamentalist Protestants, especially US variety. Too much emphasis on shame is one of the saddest things the otherwise rich and wonderful Church of Rome has put on her followers.
Well, that was not a rant, but it was long. I hope I did the subject justice, in terms of not making any offensive generalisations. The analysis is a combination of research, experience, and education on my part, but is also opinion. *I* see those features of Irish society, painting with a broad sociocultural brush, as being significant reasons why these social problems are so bad, among people who are *not* bad, and for the most part, never wish anyone any harm.
If you have any questions or comments, or think this isn't worth the electrons it took to post, and wouldn't wrap a dead mackerel in it, let me know, all right?
I'm emotional, yes. I don't tolerate bigotry in others, and I really believe (mixed race child born on the wrong side of wedlock as I am) that externals are not what matter. It is the 'who', not the 'what', that I care about.
Thank you again for asking me. You helped me rise above some flames that have been scorching my feet as leftovers from that sorry conversation, and do what I do, which is write to reach out.
I wish people could just do that, and listen more... I may be wordy, and I know sometimes I'm sharp about *facts*, but I care about people and that is my biggest curse.
Kassandra, for LeKZ
touched that you gave me the benefit of the doubt - so many have not.
Invented Post - Thanks for the reply
Woodpigeon Posted Jul 3, 2001
Arpeggio,
Thanks a lot, and I appreciate you giving me a very full explanation of your views. Your last post has had me thinking carefully and I hope you don't mind me making one or two points for the purposes of clarification.
Although the points you put are accurate from a general point, there are one or two contextual issues about Ireland that provide a slightly different picture.
First of all, southern Ireland has been independent for over 80 years, and while the legacy of colonisation casts a long, long shadow, the truth is that our country today has by and large lost that feeling of inferiority. There is a definite self-confidence about Ireland that was not there when I was growing up. The country has a vibrant democracy, people are more than willing to speak up for themselves and the country has literally excelled in economic performance in the last 15 years.
Secondly, Ireland is not the rural, clergy-led, male-dominated economy it used to be. Three-quarters of the population live in towns and cities. Over half the population is under the age of 30. Religion is becoming less of a tie as a result of scandals, much greater openness to outside influences, and the changing demographics. Average family sizes have gone down to around 2 children. Both partners in a relationship normally work. Women are prominent in political, civil and business life, and there are strong anti-discrimination laws in place. The country has opened its borders to external trade and investment, and freedom of movement is enshrined in the constitution.
However there still remains the issue of the high abuse rates. From 1990 to 1999, reported abuse rates trebled. However the reason for this is not so much due to the Ireland of Today - it has more to do with the Ireland of Yesterday, where the factors you cited were absolutely more relevant then. The country was hit with some horrific scandals of clerical and institutional child abuse during the mid 1990's. Most of these abuse cases dated back to the 1950's, '60s and '70s, and they had been kept secret for the reasons you mention. As a result of this, a lot more family abuse cases came out of the woodwork. The floodgates opened. For the first time, many brave people were prepared to publicly admit that they had been abused, and sea-change in public opinion took place, ie. pro-victim, anti-authority. New structures have been put in place to ensure this never happens again. In the next few years, the high reported rates will begin to go down.
I just want you to recognise that the country has made solid strides, and that if the rates are high, it is because we were later than others to deal with it. We have to deal with a not inconsiderable backlog of reported abuse dating back 40 years. I have been to many places around Europe and the US, and I still have to say that despite the weather , this is a great place to live in and grow up in .
CR
Invented Post - Thanks for the reply
Willem Posted Jul 3, 2001
And now they have found an excuse for silencing LeKZ for a week!!!
And this posting to me proves that it can very easily happen that people who were at first upset by something said by Kassandra or others of LeKZ can very rapidly come to a much better and potentially extremely rewarding understanding!
And that about some of the issues that are most crucially important for humanity today!
Invented Post - Thanks for the reply
Martin Harper Posted Jul 6, 2001
Hi woodpidgeon - I just thought I would pass on LeKZ' thanks for being a decent human being - and add my own. It is gratifying to see people who can negotiate disagreements and misunderstandings without losing their temper or their cool.
Invented Post - Thanks for the reply
Arpeggio - Keeper, Muse, Against Sequiturs, à propos of nothing in particular Posted Jul 11, 2001
Hullo CR~
Sorry for the delay. I was, um, detained. Thank you so much for your informative reply. It really makes a lot of sense that Ireland is just now dealing with what amounts to a half-century's worth of backlog, and once that's cleared up, the country as a whole is going to be doing much better than many (possibly than most) of the other countries in the EU, on social justice issues.
I appreciate the time and effort you took to help set me straight on my end of the information, too. Ireland as she is now is not the Ireland of the '70s (thank Heaven!) and there have been huge strides. The stereotypes that still exist are really just a shame. It takes a long time to overcome stereotyping, but as new generations come along, who didn't spend their childhoods watching the Troubles on television, along with Viet Nam, perhaps more people's perceptions will change.
I try to stay informed, and I knew things were very different in Ireland from how they were 20 years ago. You've given me more insight into all the ways Ireland has changed.
Thanks!
Kassandra, for LeKZ
Invented Post - Thanks for the reply
Arpeggio - Keeper, Muse, Against Sequiturs, à propos of nothing in particular Posted Jul 11, 2001
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Invented Post - Thanks for the reply
- 1: Woodpigeon (Jul 2, 2001)
- 2: Arpeggio - Keeper, Muse, Against Sequiturs, à propos of nothing in particular (Jul 2, 2001)
- 3: Woodpigeon (Jul 3, 2001)
- 4: Willem (Jul 3, 2001)
- 5: Martin Harper (Jul 6, 2001)
- 6: Arpeggio - Keeper, Muse, Against Sequiturs, à propos of nothing in particular (Jul 11, 2001)
- 7: Woodpigeon (Jul 11, 2001)
- 8: Arpeggio - Keeper, Muse, Against Sequiturs, à propos of nothing in particular (Jul 11, 2001)
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