This is the Message Centre for Arpeggio - Keeper, Muse, Against Sequiturs, à propos of nothing in particular
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 2, 2001
Part 36
What, you think I'm through already? No, not yet, by a long stretch! Here we have only been speaking of tolerating hurt and harm - but not yet about removing the causes of the pain and damage. In practice that is preferable to mere tolerance. The tolerance exists only to improve our chances, to enable us to persist for longer periods until we can finally do something about the sources of the hurting and the harm. If you think about it, what we were doing would seem totally artificial - we would deliberately set up a situation where we suffered pain and harm, and then with great effort attempt to remove the sources of the pain and the harm that we had set up deliberately in the first place. But honestly, there was some point to it, we wouldn't go through the entire costly, excruciating exercise if it was not with some very important goal in mind. In my own case, I found that this experience proved to be of incalculable value in 'real' situations, various different, unforeseen ones, that I had to go through, not to mention help other people through, much later. But that has to wait. This message is now nearing its end; it cannot go on forever.
I hope to be able to tell you more in future messages, should you be interested. The material ends here with what we were busy doing by the time I had passed my thirteenth birthday - so far it has only covered a single year of my training, preparation and education! The coping and tolerance methods discussed here are only the first stage, which in fact was the simplest, easiest and most straightforward one, but extremely useful preparation for the coming ones. It all became more complicated quite rapidly after that. Also, here I have described my early life, but many important things have been left out. If you consider my poem again, it suggests many themes that I have not even begun to touch on yet. That's why I still cannot talk meaningfully about it. From here on I will tell how I went on and started fighting, what positive qualities I was able to find in and gain from it, and what further problems it caused for me; I will tell of more traumas, and compare the natures of different kinds of traumas, from early to late in life; I will go into diversions and digressions that are nevertheless important; I will tell of my life and eventual death; necessarily as a result of the last I will need to go into the nature of the mind, the soul, life, existence, the laws of the universe and so on: problems, puzzles, paradoxes, certainties, uncertainties and ambiguities. This may seem to be too metaphysical but it does have a relevance, especially to people with multiple personalities, and also to anybody who finds it difficult or confusing to relate his/her own existence to those of other people, other times and other places (hmmm… I am considering using your pronoun 'hir'; I will think about it some more). And I promise I will not be overbearing and dogmatic; I will go as far as possible to allow for multiple possibilities and interpretations to suit the different conceptual needs of different people.
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 2, 2001
Part 37
In the end all of this must also be seen in context and then from that lessons might be learned that will be valuable for the present situation. I mean your situation, but I am also thinking more generally. I mean your entire world, your society. You people have problems and you must know this, I care about that a lot, and I wish to help. You need to understand your problems better and if you consider them from different perspectives you will gain new insight about their deeper nature - that is why I mention my own experiences that have mainly been quite different from yours, but in many deep respects similar. The solutions to problems are not straightforward, otherwise your people and your world would have found them long ago. You may need to critically re-evaluate many of your beliefs, and reformulate many of your concepts. This is one thing I know for a fact - the more diverse, flexible and adaptable your ideas are, the better. Consider what seems to be a simple concept, that of tolerance. I have been speaking about tolerance here - specifically pain tolerance, but that has relevance to tolerance in other spheres as well. It is no simple matter - tolerance firstly depends on problems, and secondly it brings more problems. But intolerance is even worse. Then there is the matter of violence and non-violence, which is also not a clear-cut issue. I need to say much more about that. There are emotions such as fear, and hate, and anger, and there are attitudes such as compassion, respect, contempt, trust, distrust, and there is the overreaching states-of-being called love, that I need to go into in depth, because from my perspective I can see aspects of those things that it seems to me most in your world neglect severely. And that's not all - a lot more. What I can give you is this: not philosophy, but experience. I don't wish to detract from the value of philosophy, but philosophies so often fall very far short of the truth. In my case I can offer my life experiences as demonstration or refutation of beliefs and theories, or as a guide to their interpretation or modification. It is not even important that you should establish whether I am speaking the perfect truth or not - what is important is that you should consider them, compare them to your own experiences - those of the past and those still to come - and see if there is something in them that you can apply to your own situation. They will make you more sensitive to what is happening in your life and your world, more aware of and attentive to problems even before they arise, and they will stimulate your imagination into searching for your own solutions to your own problems.
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 2, 2001
Part 38
I do not wish to teach you in the sense of telling you "this, and this, and this, is so…" I consider you an equal. You have many insights that I have not. You have much knowledge, and I wish to ask you many, many questions. But before we do that I wish that you should know a bit more about me, just to have an idea where I come from, because then you are able to better give me advice and information. And you can just listen to my own views and make of them what you want, derive whatever insight or benefit you can from them. But most of all I just want to offer love, compassion, kindness, support, encouragement, and interest in what you have to say. I hope that that can be worth something to you.
There is one thing I would like to suggest … while most of this message has been specifically about bad things, and while I will talk about many more bad things in future messages, if I get the chance, you must always remember that I also knew about good things. The communities and the society in which I lived were very nice, overall. I have learned in them many ways of getting along well with other people, of interacting constructively, creatively and harmoniously, of communicating effectively. I wish to discuss the relevance of this to your own personalities or identities. Do they get along well with each other? Are they in balance, in harmony with each other? Do they communicate well with each other? Are there some of them that feel neglected? Are there some of them that are isolated? I ask, because you mention that there are groups that are rebels, and even a 'convent' - how do those stand in relation to the others? I would really like to get to know as many as possible of your different people, each as well as possible - as well as they would let me. I am not a psychologist, I assure you; I know nothing of theories, of case studies, or what have you, but I know much of the inner nature of humans, and of the interrelations between different members of the communities of living organisms. And what I don't know, I can find out, or figure out. If you can have better 'community' inside of you, then maybe you can be happier, and function better in your own environment. You do give many indications that you would want that.
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 2, 2001
Part 39
Also, there's the matter of your physical health. You mention anorexia, kidney problems, other illnesses… many that sound avoidable to me. We maintained our physical health mainly by being very attentive to our bodies, inside and outside, practicing until we improved the mental feedback and control of our various systems, and by being conscious of the influences of diet, the environment, moods, living conditions, habits, and more. In my world we have mastered that to a very high level: we never got sick, we recovered rapidly even from injuries that would be lethal to your world's people, we were all strong, and fit, and flexible, and fast, young-and-attractive-looking even after the age of two hundred, and never needing drugs or surgery except in very rare emergencies … except for in the fighting ring, where we needed it more or less daily! Even so, us fighters went even beyond the rest of our society with our natural, inbuilt abilities, and could do much more without artificial intervention than the average folks could. I cannot promise you or anybody else in your world similar results, but I do think I can offer a lot of advice that might be practical in your circumstances. If you think I might be able to help, ask me, and then I will want to know about the specifics: what kinds of things gave/give you problems at what times, your living environment, your mental outlook, your knowledge of general anatomy and physiology and of your own body's unique peculiarities, your diet, your habits… this does not ever substitute for medical knowledge, but just note that I will give you no prescriptions, and with all practices I recommend I will fully warn you and make you attentive to all possible risks. There are many low-risk strategies though that can be very very effective, and I will stress those. Mental outlook is in my view the most important… you need to strike a very delicate balance, you need to be extremely alert even to the smallest disturbances to your physical equilibrium, but at the same time you must not ever worry or over-react, or be overly sensitive or hypochondriacal. You must be able to not worry about even serious disease conditions, while still doing everything within the bounds of reasons to relieve them. There's also the role of the imagination … merely imagining recovery, or the operation of recovery mechanisms, helps to enhance recovery. Maybe you already know all this, and maybe you can do it well… you say that you were able to very quickly recognise and respond to allergic reactions to nuts, for instance… that is a good sign. You mention something about being forced to eat foods that you were allergic to… that is most deplorably criminal, and people in your world in general must be made more aware of the influences of foods and substances on the human body. Why, do you think, allergies are on the increase in your world? There are many signs that humans are getting more unhealthy. That is not right. It can and should be avoided.
You may be amused to learn that I have actually suffered from many more illnesses and infections after my death than during my life! More later, if you should wish to know.
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 2, 2001
Part 40
At last I reach the end! Poor Willem - I actually forced him to sit and concentrate and write all this out, in the midst of quite a busy week-end!
Okay, what I will do from here on… I will now go and read and re-read your writings on your website, and also here on h2g2. I want to encourage you, please keep writing, talk about anything and everything that you want to! Also, always feel free to ask me or Willem anything that you want. On my part, I will definitely want to discuss some of what you've written, your poetry in particular, and talk about matters in your world and lives that I am concerned about. I will also ask questions, since there is a lot more that I wish to know and would like to understand better. I still have many 'blind spots'. It's only very recently that I have even found out about the existence of your world, and its status relative to my own still puzzles me. But irrespective of that, I can identify very closely with you people. It is clear to me that you are just as human as I am and that your feelings and experiences are just as valid and deserving of recognition as mine and those of the people of my world. I also think we can contribute a lot to your world, and I wish to assure you that your world has already contributed a lot to ours. Since Valerie and the others have started this exploring business we have found out just how little we knew and just how much we can still improve matters. Of the limited number of people of your world that I have met, you have so far fascinated, impressed and inspired me more than most, for many different reasons. Accept my humble thanks once again!
Vivienne, through Willem, to Arpeggio, Kassandra, Sara, Auntie and the others of LeKZ: Fare thee well!
Alright, it's me, the Pillowcase again. Quite a message, isn't it! Just note, if there's nonsense in it, or errors, they are my fault, not Viv's - it's quite hard to concentrate, not to mention that I don't understand everything, and it was also a bit difficult to keep all the different bits in the right order - Viv actually told me so much more that I had to be selective and I left out a great deal while writing … I kept checking back and forward and read and re-read it to make sure I wasn't leaving anything important out, and that I've really phrased everything in the best possible way… that's the problem, Viv cannot actually write it all down herself using her full knowledge and abilities and her own language, she's restricted to what I can handle, and I often feel I can't handle everything she's entrusting to me, I feel that I'm letting her down or betraying her in some way, but honestly, I try my best. Arpeggio, or Kassandra, I would like to hear what you have to say about that. Viv has lots more to say. Then I also have Val here, and she has different views of her own, again. I also have some others as well. Do you think it would be a bad idea to loose these folks on the poor unsuspecting h2g2 community?
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 27, 2001
Vivienne here.
I am upset about my friends LeKZ being evicted from this virtual community. I want to tell more about my own story. Will LeKZ accept it if I here speak further, even though they are not here to hear it any more? But they can still hear, they can still read. As I said in the beginning, I want to have my stories in public - this is a public forum, what has been written has not yet been of an extremely intimate private nature, and is potentially accessible to the world - but I feel I need to clear it with LeKZ first as this used to appear on their userpage. I feel like I am shouting, alone, into a cavern.
Vivienne, to nobody in particular: So Long - Whither Now?
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 28, 2001
I'm here, Viv! Maybe we can use this as an opportunity. Here we have a quiet forum. We can speak a little. I need to speak to you, big sis. We need to be doing this in a more direct manner. I think Willem is ready for it.
Viv, remember the last time we did this. We're still learning... remember what went wrong that time. This is not guaranteed. But I think we have a good chance. We need to get Willem and some of the other people to understand that we are serious.
Big sis, what is our strategy right now?
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 28, 2001
Hey Val! This will be enjoyable! Let us spook these people just a little bit! A little bit more than they are spooked already, that is!
Our strategy? You know it well, Val - haven't we been talking about it quite intensely up till now? But I know what you mean - we have to raise it to a more concrete level. We thought that we could use this site to spread our messages, and we still do, right? We also thought that LeKZ could be an ally over here, right? And now LeKZ have been driven off, along with some other friends who could have helped us a lot. Not to mention that we could have helped them! Willem is corresponding with them somewhere else, and therefore we have not totally lost them. We do not know if we'll get them back here, though.
Val, and now these people are instituting additional measures to try and reduce LeKZ's influence on the site. They are quite extremely repressive. These people still think in terms of individual control. They are very very short-sighted and distrustful. But you know, dear baby sis, what is happening here seems to me to be excessive even for these guys. We have got to know the way the people of this world are, the way they think, we have even become a bit used to it, but honestly, these recent happenings surprise me. I wonder if it may be that they realise just what a threat LeKZ, as well as ourselves, pose to them? I mean, they would see it as a threat, wouldn't they? They have not imagination enough to see what they would gain by relinquishing just a little bit of their control and perceived security.
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 28, 2001
Yes, Viv. We will not easily succeed in changing their outlook. I think a good idea will be to start assisting Willem with talking to people over here. You have your outlook, I mine ... we have quite a diversity of views, and together we can become very vocal indeed. For a start, let it just be Willem and the two of us. Allow people some time to get to know us three. Then we can ask Griffin and the rest to also join in. That's in the public conversations. But even before we reach that point I think Griffin will be joining us here, in this fairly private forum, to contribute his views on strategy.
Let's be silent for now. We can speak out openly again later tonight, or maybe tomorrow.
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 28, 2001
Agreed, baby sis! Look - I'm being creative and humorous!
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 29, 2001
Baby sis? Let's talk a bit more business. It has been suggested that Willem talk directly to Mark, or Peta, or Abi, about problems experienced here. Do you think that anything might be achieved by that tactic?
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 29, 2001
Vivienne, sometimes I feel you treat me a mite too supercilliously. I may be almost two centuries your junior, but I am immeasurably more wise and knowledgeable than you! So a little more respect is due than with the 'baby sis'!
But of Willem speaking to Mark, Peta or Abi ... it is to be seriously doubted that that will achieve anything at the present moment, in this atmosphere. We want LeKZ back here, right? But the authorities will unquestionably not go back on their decisions, at least not before a lengthy and drawn-out attitude re-orientation has taken place. What else remains? We want a community arbitration - forum? Team? Viv, you know how we do this sort of thing there with us - but we need to sit down and consider what would be most applicable over here. I do think this needs to be an institution, manned by groups of volunteers - people apply for the position and then they are chosen according to whether they have the necessary skills and traits. Or there needs to be written a set of guidelines for whoever decides to join such a team. I think I should sit down and do it. It is bound to be messy at first. There are drawbacks to knowing millions of times more than in it is possible to write down in this silly language in any reasonable period of time. We need guidelines for arbitration. We must try and anticipate what kind of arbitration situations might come up. We need to study what has happened already and extrapolate from that.
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 29, 2001
Yes baby sis, but forget not to mention that it was 7rob7's idea initially, later expanded on by Colonel Sellers. And also, don't go doing too much research and planning. You're so thorough, you're liable to take fifty years with it and then you'll still not be satisfied! Aim for a week or two.
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 29, 2001
You are right, Vivienne. I always forget how concerned these people are with what is whose idea.
I also believe we need to ask some other people over here, and also on topica. You did not say your own viewpoint yet - do *you* think we may be able to get somewhere with Mark, Peta or Abi?
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 29, 2001
Val, I am not sure. The impression I have is that these people are quite busy and do not wish to be bothered with any ideas that are not their own. They will not sit down for a lengthy period of time to meditate and ponder suggestions from our side. That is the impression I have but I might be wrong. Still it might be worth the try. Write something and let Willem offer it when ready.
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 29, 2001
*Sighhh...* It would be easier if Willem had more time and energy. I fear we are pushing him quite hard.
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 29, 2001
Val, Willem is okay - I won't let him wear himself down, I'm looking out for him, you know that.
Vivienne's Reply
Willem Posted Jul 29, 2001
Yes I do Viv - and now he knows it too, again, better. Let's go.
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Vivienne's Reply
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