h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I was really trying to stay out of all of these conversations, but now I find some time to lurk about. Coop, like Two Bit or 42 said, it would be surprising if you didn't protest. Perhaps that is what separates people like you and people like me. Loyalty, honor, and most importantly duty. But I won't spout idealistic phrases at you, you seem to be comfortable hiding behind your religion. Coop, I too am Christian, in fact Catholic. ANd our whole faiths are founded upon the blood of others. So get comfortable and shut your eyes so you don't see all those red stains on your hands.

Lets play my friend.

War Crimes. . .they are an inherent part of the battlefield. But to say "everyone did it" would be dumb, but the fact that the Russians didn't return the German POW's, after the German's spent those years eradicating Russian POW's in extermination Camps. . .I won't sleep over the missing Germans. Nagasaki, oh my. . .we had to go there. Okay, Nagasaki, and the whole Atom Bomb thing. .. hmmm. . .did you know that the Japanese were respnsible for the chemical and biological annihilation of more chinese than the germans put through theier camps total. Did you know that the Japanese were ready for a US Invasion and were prepared to throw their civilian populous at us in waves as we hit the beach. The estimate of lives lost by the US in an invasion of Japanese Mainland would be in the millions. ANd according to military law, civilians cease to be civilians 1) when they take arms and 2) when the military uses them as shields then they become the responsibility o the miltary using them- - -thus not a crime. And alos, those targets were vital to the infrastructure. But hey you knew that right. Perhaps you didn't hear of japanese snipers sneaking into patrol bases at night and kidnapping marines and soldiers, then gutted them just outside friendly lines, and when his friends came to save the screaming serviceman, the snipers would open fire. But hey, they died for nothing right? I mean to you it is all unjust, but who has body armor for loyalty.

War is war. and you are here becasue of war whether you like or not. The crusades were a founding part of our religion. The wars of the bible were fought and established certain ideals and principles that we all live by now. Or perhaps you are the type of person that only takes from the bible what they feel would aid them best and not the book as a whole. War. . .Everybodies life is touched by it. You are 1/32 cherokee right? Well damn, those cherokee's have a vilent side to them as well, and if they hadn't. . .then that 1/32 of you wouldn't be around.

Do I wish war? NO. I don't. Becaues I will exerience it in a way you never will. And thank god. Becasue I would not want you or anyone else to see what I see. That is why I do what I do. And that is why the 34 men I lead do what they do.
I get sick when I see people marching for peace, holding banners and spitting on servicemen and women. If you don't want to pull the trigger, thats fine, all I ask is that you get in the scrap with us, before you say what we do is wrong. The Infantry doesn't fight for the things we used to. Now we fight for the man to our left and to our right.

But I tell you what Coop, you call those families whose brothers, sons, sister, daughters, husbands, wives died on foriegn soil. And tell them they were wrong. Tell that cryinng mother holding a flag that you wouldn't help her son no matter what, because it compromises your "principles." Tell her man, and look deep in those eyes. That is where true hate will spring. I don't hate my enemy. It would do no good and it would cloud my judgement. Or wait, write that 5 year old boy some day, who asks his mommy when is daddy coming home. You write the "The Secratary of the Army Regrets To Inform" letters to that boy. But be sure to include that what the father died for was wrong and how you feel that he died for nothing. Or doesn't your version of Christianity help you with that. While you seek the comfort of religion, they seek the comfrort of what was once. You can't wrap your arms around a memory.

I realize taht I am probably wasting my words on you. I know I am. But that will be the only thing I waste on you. One day it will come that you need people like me, and we won't turn on you. We are better than that.

So, next time you are having a protest, think about that man on a barbed wire wall during the winter months alone in the night. Missing his family, but knowing that what he is doing is giving you the right to do what you are doing.

Terrorism a cowards war. It is a way of undermining the security and lifestyle of the people it is intended to impact. Think of it as that bully in the lunchline punching that little nerdy kid who can't fight back. Terrorism is an attack on someone that can't defend themselves. War is fighting on a more even plain. All involved can fight back. There is an honor in war. The men on the battlefield respect one an other. Terrorism doesn't have that. Only one side has the honorable intention. In this case, to end all terrorism.

Peace. . .peace is a great thing. Perhaps I am the only professional that wishes he was unemployed. To hear you talk, its not the case.
So before you protest again, think about wha I have just said to you. I applaude your ability to do what you are doing. Hell I give you that right. So I give you a pre-emptive Your welcome. But my door will forever remain closed to you.

Aaron

I don't think attorcities on the part of the enemy are a justification for war crimes.

I feel awful for the Germans POW's that were held by Russia. The worst war crime of all, in my view is abuse of POW's.

I don't think I was justifying. I was just putting a point forward that it happens. That is a way that Russians do business. We do it a lot differntly. But not everyone subscribes to the same humanity we do. Look at the Japanese and what they did to our men.

But I still won't lose sleep for the germans. Especially after the way they didn't take prisoners during the battle of the bulge.

Or perhaps we would like to discuss the 91st Infanty regiment in Battaan. Where a night attack on a japanese patrol base. . a totally legal and wartime action, resulted in the Japanese units searching this regiment out. They found it. . .lined up all the men and went one by one decapitating them.
But hey, the bomb was inhumane and the Japanese had to much civility to worthy of such an end.

Clarifications on chemical weapons:

The Geneva Protocol of 1925 does prohibit the use of toxic chemical agents, but many nations including the United States reserve the right to use chemical weapons if the other party uses them first. So the first use of chemical weapons would be a war crime. Subsequent uses wouldn't be.

RE: Mustard gas (35)

I'm surprised that YOU claim to know history--referring to the Triple Alliance as "the Axis". Shame.

And I think you'll find at least one military historian and one American historian who agrees with me that the use of chemical agents is criminal.

You say we should "take action to eradicate those who would murder innocent people." Then eradicate us after we're done, because the only way to get to EVERYONE who is a potential terrorist threat is to murder some innocent people.

Do you think global terrorism will stop? Is there anything we can do, short of killing the entire world, that will end it?

RE: Americans in Japan (36)
My point, Fraulein, was that we could have done most of the good things we did WITHOUT doing the bad things.

RE: Posts 37 and 38
42, there is no point in antagonising me. Mumia, I believe, is guilty, but that's beside the point. Please do not make any more pseudo-threatening remarks to me.

RE: "Turn the other cheek" (40)
Two Bit, I suggest you have a look at that passage in the Bible. It clearly says that if someone hit you, you shouldn't hit him back. It goes on to say that if he make you walk one mile, walk a second mile also. And then there's the troublesome "Love your enemy." Loving an enemy and feigning feeblemindedness for a tactical advantage against an enemy would seem to be mutually exclusive. That quote was NOT out of context.

RE: Post 41
The history of Christianity is one of persecution, in which brave believers were martyred. You can't claim to be a martyr when you go to another person's home, shoot some people, and finally are killed.
I'm not intending to hide behind my religion. I think I've stated that attack Afghanistan is bad for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it will be ineffective. The religious argument is for those who share a belief in Scripture. I believe that the Pope has voiced concerns about a military action. Not being Catholic, I'm not sure, but I heard something to that effect.
I know war crimes happen inherently on the battlefield. That's why I'm a pacifist. If you don't want war crimes to occur, don't have wars.
I understand that I'm able to do what I do because of war. That doesn't justify war. If it did, the same logic could be applied to almost any widely-accepted evil event in history. The Holocaust, for example, has had a hand in making me who I am. That doesn't mean that it was alright for the Holocaust to occur. As I've said before, bad events can have good consequences, but they don't justify the bad event.

I do not dispute the evils done by the US' former enemies. But that does not justify evils done TO them. That's what "turn the other cheek" is partly about.

I must say that I believe that killing an innocent civilian child in Afghanistan will do NOTHING to help anyone; in fact, it will probably inflame the situation.

--Cooper
(fearing Carnivore)

aarons words make me proud...thank you aaron (stands and salutes you)

as for you cooper, i am through testing futility. you and your "peaceniks" or whatever you want to call them make me sick. your bag full of priniciple doesnt weigh much, which is a good thing because you might have to live in it one day.

Trying to nitpick rather than discuss the larger ideas is dishonest arguing, Cooper. You can hide behind "you don't serve tea in a pub" or the Axis v. the Triple Alliance (and that was an honest mistake on my part) or you can meet us head on. I was responding to your direct example of the use of mustard gas during WWI--not chemical or biological weapons in today's world and you know it--in fact, *I* said their usage was barbaric. And to try to infer that those of us who are opposed to your viewpoints want to see Afghan children die is egregious. That only serves to flame emotions and nothing else. None of us want to see the innocent die. But we do want to see the perpetrators punished. You can pick and choose out of the Bible to support any viewpoint on nearly every issue you want; that's the problem with any book cobbled together by different authors at different times far removed from the actual events. What would you have our country do? We know that Bin Laden and his associates will hide behind the women and children of Afghanistan, that's the route of any terrorist/coward. Even if we did not strike back, if we ended sanctions against Iraq, if we pulled out of the holy sites of Saudi Arabia, and ended our support for Israel (all of which has been claimed as the motive for the attack) that would not make our enemies love us. Other justifications will be found. You can keep turning the other cheek, but what happens when you do not have any left to give your attacker?

I think you are sorely misguided, however I support your right (and the rights of all other peace protestors) to voice your opinions. That's what makes this country great, and that's what makes me proud to live here. But we would not have these rights if they were not protected and fought for...

I'm not arguing that nonretaliation will end terrorism; I'm arguing that NOTHING, including military action, will end terrorism.

--Cooper
(fearing Carnivore)

What is the difference between a Martyr and a Terrorist? Semantics.

Aren't those that commited these attrocities martyrs for their causes?

Peacenik, your arguement holds no water, and I hold no respect for you.

Or how about this Coop,

Should I not return, you write my mother. You tell her what you have told us. Or are you convictions not strong enough to do that. Cuz if you were one of my guys I'd have to write your mother, and tell her that you died for something. BUt you tell my mine I died for nothing. I dare you.

In quick response to post 47 when you turn your cheek you better be ready for another hit. {to appease is to allow} would you tell your child to turn her cheek to a murder and would you sit there and watch her be killed. welcome to the world

Peace is an idealistic concept. It is Anthropologically and ethnographically proven that warfare is part of the Human mindset. Jsut because we have the ability for complex thought, doesn't mean war doesn't happen. Hide behind words and faith all you want. .. someday you'll have to step to the plate and fight for what you belive in.

and (O THE HORROR!) someone might get hurt...

As usual I will throw in my two pennies.
Clink clink
Some of you might actually be surprised by a little of my comments but hear me out first.

Merriam-Webster's definition for terrorism is-
Terrorism the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.

Looking at this definition I can see how Cooper could see the US's dropping of the Atomic bombs could be considered acts of terrorism. Using this same definition I can call my mom a terrorist because she systematically used terror (i.e. punishment) as a means of coercion.
Do I believe it is wrong that the US used the bombs? Absolutely not. Yes there were many innocents killed. Yes we were trying to intimidate the Japanese into surrender. I think that we ended up saving more innocent lives then we killed with the bombs. I know that sounds a little strange. (has anyone heard of Sgt York) The Japanese were prepared to fight, almost the last person. If we would of used conventional warfare against them we would have been forced to attack and attack and attack. The war would not of ended as quickly as it did and many many more lives on both sides would of been lost. More harm would of come to the Japanese people in the long run.

I can also agree with his statement that any action or non-action of the US or it's Allies will bring an end to terrorism. Yes it is true no matter what we end up doing there will be no end to terrorism. We will not be able no matter how hard we try to end it forever because at anytime someone can make a terrioust attack. Do I believe the US should take action against the parties responsible for the attacks. Yes. Do I think the world should attack terrorism wherever it rears its ugly head. Yes. To say taking no action would be better then action in this un-win-able fight to me sounds like we should fire all the cops that are right now walking the beat. Crime will never be eliminated from humanity. Someone will always try to brake the law for one reason or another. To take no action to remedy this to go after the law breaker would be letting that person think it was OK to do it that there will be no repercussions or consequences for ones actions. To deny the necessity of some kind of consequence to ones actions is to laps into a sense of anarchy. You mentioned some other cases of terrorism. Any acts of terrorism should be dealt with. Be it with people terrorizing each other in Ireland or the middle east. The spotlight is on this latest act because it has affected the US. All around the world people are watching to see what the US does aginst this attack. Will the US back down after this initcal threat is taken care of (which I am sure will happen if some of my friends have anything to say about it), I just don't know. That's when politics often gets in the way. If it is not affecting the tax payers or the voters little may happen. We will see.

I think we can put all our history lessons aside for the moment because everyone seems to agree on the few main points:
1. War and violence has led to changes for the good in the past.
2. War and violence has led to other bad things happening.
3. Peace is the goal of the majority of people (though each persons view of peace is different)
4. No matter how noble a cause there is always things that come out bad during war.
5. No matter what the cause or reason for a war Politics will always be an aspect of it.

"The CIA recommends that its if its agents are captured, they should pretend their wimps. Curl up in a ball, cry, urinate on themselves in fear. A bully may beat someone up, but what they're really seeking is dominance. Once they've established that, they'll soon get bored and drift away." This I must say works. I was getting beat up in high school by this girl and I did this and it caused her to stop. That may be why I did not date in High School much.

Will the upcoming conflict rid the world of terrorism, NO. Is it justifiable, yes.

Will I dare talk back to Mr. Okeefe's mom, heck no I am not crazy man she is ruthless.

I think thats about all I can put down right now. (they actualy expect me to get work done here)

I doubt many captured CIA agents think about dating in captivity.

Well what else do they got to think about?

Isn't "dating in captivity" repetitous anyway?