h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I must object to your harsh comments on Kibbutzim.

Don't get me wrong, I don't condone much of what goes on in Israel, and am especially ashamed of the actions of the settlers on the east bank. But I don't think it's fair to dismiss Kibbutzim as flawed becuase they're oppressive to Palistineans.

As a Jew and visitor to Israel, I can say that the kibbutz is perhaps the best example of communism at work. Although it pains me deeply to say it, I believe that it proves that communism can only work in the context of a small community.

While it is true that the Palistineans are being oppressed in some areas, and while it is true that Ariel Shiron, the Israeli prime-minister, is a war mongering shmuck, I'm afraid I must take the Zionist angle here.

I am 14. I am Jewish. My mother's father was a Bolshevik. My father's father was also a communist. I am a communist and a Zionist. I believe that there can be peace and unity in Israel, despite the current conflict.

I know that the far left is generally anti-Israel. Please, don't follow majoritive opinion or the heavily bias coverage given by BBC. I'm not asking you to conform to my views. I'm asking you to keep open minds.

Forgive my ranting.

The New Bard

I have to say I never intended to criticize the kibbutz system at all. I merely pointed out that it was not perfect (ie the small scale necessary means that the majority of people will not experience it)and mentioned the back drop of the oppresion of the Palestinian people by the state of Israel as a backdrop to provide some context and an overview of the situation out there (Its always best to cover as many of the issues at hand as possible even if not directly related).
I would also like to say that I don't conform to any 'standard viewpoint' (to tell the truth I came up with all my work independently, Marx just appears to have summed up all I believe in), especially not in the respect you suggest. After all Marx himself was Jewish, and Bob Dylan, and Einstein... (I'm now struggling to think of any truly great historical figures who weren't!). I am not against the jewish faith or people in the slightest, I do however condemn the state of Israel in it's current context on the basis of the actions it has taken. I believe that while the Jewish people deserve and need a land to call home, it cannot be carved out of another group of peoples homes, if only eveybody over there could learn to live side by side in peace. But the human race as a whole doesn't really seem to be all that big on peace. In have recently introduced a friend of mine to the guide (I don't know if he's on yet or not) who is a fellow marxist, and jewish to. I'm sure we'll be able to have some great discussions about this topic, actually he's about you're age as well. Ah
Do you happen by any chance to be a talented fencer (although a dodgy left-hander named Dan?) Probably not but I had to ask.
Anyway the Kibbutz system is about the best system of communism going, although on the small scale it operates I don't know if it technically 'counts' what with the whole issue of "control of the means of production" etc, but I love it on a personal level. I have to agree you probably are right about it being indicative of the small scale only argument but to really achieve communism there would have to be some significantly larger means of economic production under the control of the proletariat (but thats really just a technicality.) And I am hopeful that it points the way forward to a brighter future and can eventually expanded on to a larger scale. Still who knows what the future could hold. Hopefully we can talk in the future as the kibbutzim has always been a subject of great interest to me.
P.s I am reading a book at the moment entitled 'Kibbutz Makom' although due to time constraints I have not read much. This will hopefully bring me up to speed on the subject as I can't claim to be an aexpert. God I've written a lot, sorry! back to the revolution...
Big Bad Bolshevik Bob.

I have to say I never intended to criticize the kibbutz system at all. I merely pointed out that it was not perfect (ie the small scale necessary means that the majority of people will not experience it)and mentioned the back drop of the oppresion of the Palestinian people by the state of Israel as a backdrop to provide some context and an overview of the situation out there (Its always best to cover as many of the issues at hand as possible even if not directly related).
I would also like to say that I don't conform to any 'standard viewpoint' (to tell the truth I came up with all my work independently, Marx just appears to have summed up all I believe in), especially not in the respect you suggest. After all Marx himself was Jewish, and Bob Dylan, and Einstein... (I'm now struggling to think of any truly great historical figures who weren't!). I am not against the jewish faith or people in the slightest, I do however condemn the state of Israel in it's current context on the basis of the actions it has taken. I believe that while the Jewish people deserve and need a land to call home, it cannot be carved out of another group of peoples homes, if only eveybody over there could learn to live side by side in peace. But the human race as a whole doesn't really seem to be all that big on peace. In have recently introduced a friend of mine to the guide (I don't know if he's on yet or not) who is a fellow marxist, and jewish to. I'm sure we'll be able to have some great discussions about this topic, actually he's about you're age as well. Ah
Do you happen by any chance to be a talented fencer (although a dodgy left-hander named Dan?) Probably not but I had to ask.
Anyway the Kibbutz system is about the best system of communism going, although on the small scale it operates I don't know if it technically 'counts' what with the whole issue of "control of the means of production" etc, but I love it on a personal level. I have to agree you probably are right about it being indicative of the small scale only argument but to really achieve communism there would have to be some significantly larger means of economic production under the control of the proletariat (but thats really just a technicality.) And I am hopeful that it points the way forward to a brighter future and can eventually expanded on to a larger scale. Still who knows what the future could hold. Hopefully we can talk in the future as the kibbutzim has always been a subject of great interest to me.
P.s I am reading a book at the moment entitled 'Kibbutz Makom' although due to time constraints I have not read much. This will hopefully bring me up to speed on the subject as I can't claim to be an aexpert. God I've written a lot, sorry! back to the revolution...
Big Bad Bolshevik Bob.

Very perceptive of you, 'Bob.'

I never was any good at concealing my identity.




Shalom Rubenstein

No proverbial!!! You kiddin' me???? Anyways so how are you finding the guide? Have a look at the Kalashnikov Party Needs You and subsidiary articles. (although some are a little bit half baked at the minute.) Me and Covert Bob would appreciate some input. Although how can I tell It's really you? Whats my National insurance number? Birthdate? Mothers maiden name? Or to be fairer what Regional fencing team are we both fencing for and where are we going to kick some ass???

Either way I would enjoy doing some collaborative type stuff on the guide. There is a guy who wants to do an article on Marxism and I'm sure that he would welcome our input Search for Marxism (a proposal)

East Midlands all the way, my caffine machine of a friend. (Rehab. It's the only way.)


As for a collaboration of some nature, I'd be happy to lend what minimal gems of wisdom I can offer. Just fill me in on some details.



Shalom Rubenstein

Hi guys!
Dear Shalom- the settlements are on the WEST bank... On the East one it would be the Whole Eretz Israel- if you know what I mean. And the shmuck's name is Sharon, not Shiron.
I'm a Kibbutznik, and- hate to disappoint you- Communism doesn't live here anymore.
We're going through lots of changes, and slowly becoming a community with differential salry, our houses would become our property in afew years, and all that would be left of the Kibbutz is the name. Most Kibbutzim follow that change. I see it as a must, we can't keep dragging behind the rest of the Western World, which our government tries to immitate so well.
Communism, in my opinion, died in the 70's, when Hippies turned into Yappies.
There's a link to an entry on my space about the Kibbutz, as I see it. You're more than welcome to read it and comment to your heart's desire.

Elly

You must forgive me.

I seem to have been quite mistaken on a number of accounts. (In my defence, most were owing to the hour at which I posted that message and the copious amounts of caffinne I had imbibed prior to posting. Blame Bolshevik Bob - he taught me all I know in the caffine department.)

And as for 'Shiron/Sharon,' it's originally written in Ivrit, so techinically there is no 'correct' English transalation. Just look at the word 'Channukah.' Or is that 'Hannucah?' Or 'Hannuka?' See what I mean?

As for all the other mistakes you pointed out, I can offer nothing but apologies and my immense sadness and disillusionment at the death of communism on Kibbutzim.

But I disagree with your somewhat hasty inference that communists, or communism, equals anti-progress. I can't speak for communism as a whole, but I'm certainly not. I'm pro-progress, just a different kind.

Oh, and if I'd made any more howling mistakes in this post, please don't point them out. My poor, fragile ego needs reflating.

Thank you.


Shalom Rubenstein.

Your ego id officially reflated. Fencing, huh?
Stone or picket?

Sorry...