h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Right, I had linked this in my previous journal entry's conversation but here it is again in case people want to talk more about it. This is a letter a soldier who served in Iraq wrote to try and explain why he committed suicide:

http://gawker.com/i-am-sorry-that-it-has-come-to-this-a-soldiers-last-534538357?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

Now my suicidal period started on Friday evening and lasted through Saturday and I started coming down on Sunday. A link to this letter was sent to me on Monday by a friend of mine who was also suicidal. He's also better now ... he didn't actually plan or attempt to go through with it, he just felt like it. He said the letter resonated with how he felt ... it resonates with how I felt (then) also.

Now I know that many people think there's a danger in expressing understanding for why a person committed suicide. This understanding might make it seem as if suicide is being condoned. Which might seem as if it would perhaps be giving the 'all clear' to people who *are* suicidal to do it.

In my experience it doesn't work that way. Understanding *reduces* the likelihood of suicide. That is the tack I've taken so far with my friend because he's been suicidal and extremely negative before. My attitude when he is like that is *not* to react vehemently, *not* to try and talk him out of it, but instead just calmly speaking with him about it. This keeps the overall amount of pressure low.

If you look at the discussion of the soldier's suicide you'll come across a portion where people are discussing whether suicide is selfish or not. This is the part that still bothers me very much. I know from my own case and every other case of suicidal people I've known of that they are thinking of others all of the time. But in the suicidal state you consider yourself not worth much and therefore you honestly don't think others will be very badly affected. You do think your friends and family will mourn for a while but then get over it.

Now again when I think of my friend: how will I react if he *does* commit suicide? I will be sad but I will not be devastated. Not because I don't value him highly enough but *because* I do value him very highly. I owe it to him to respect whatever decision he makes - and to not be devastated for his sake because he wouldn't want me to be devastated. By being devastated I will be ruining his suicide in a way.

Does this make his committing suicide more likely? I don't think so. I think it takes some of the pressure *off* actually. A suicidal person who worries how other people will react to his suicide will be feeling *more pressure*. Remove that and there's a tiny little bit more breathing space.

Because this is how *I* feel about the possibility of *a friend of mine*'s possible suicide and it seems to me the right way to feel, I think my friends should feel similarly about the possibility of *my* suicide.

There's another thing: I don't think death is so bad. It's a natural thing, it happens all the time. What it is, is a loss of the person to the living. But that happens all the time. Our loved ones die, we mourn, and we get over it. Or we don't, in which case *we* might die as well. Those who can live, live; those who can't live, die. It's the way of things and it's not that bad - unless we make it so.

Also consider I am operating on a different kind of philosophic framework from the mainstream western. In the west we attach a stigma to suicide that is a holdover from our Christian heritage. In Christianity a suicide was seen as having succumbed to despair which entailed having ignored and rejected God's mercy, and therefore having been bound for Hell. This made it an extremely horriffic thing for anyone to do. But if there is no Hell and no eternal condemnation for the suicide, it becomes a different thing. It becomes no better or worse than any other death. We still need to figure out what death is ... for which we need to know what life is. We don't. I suspect I have a bit of a better idea about this than most people. I actually have several different views of what life and death might be ... but the end of my musings says to me that death isn't horrible unless life itself is inevitably and fundamentally horrible - which I don't think it is (but when I do think it is I'm in for a kind of horror impossible to describe).

But anyways: I think life is good (when I'm in positive mode) and then death is also not so bad because it's part of the cycle of life. We must make the most of life, because whatever else it might be, it's a one-time opportunity. (Even if we do live many lives each one is unique.) But I don't think we must push it to the extreme. Sometimes death can be in the service of life.

Now: the problem with 'understanding' suicide in a sympathetic way, and actually condoning suicide. We are much more condoning suicide by doing nothing about the life circumstances that impel people towards suicide. The suicide rate in America is extremely high - and I think in other countries too. There have been many recent suicides in Britain linked to 'austerity measures'. Now my take is: rather than condemning people who commit suicide or think of it or try it - why don't we try and do something about the circumstances that are a factor? Take this soldier: what he was expected to endure is beyond human endurance. Take almost any suicidal person: here you have a person in an absolutely nightmarish situation. People don't easily kill themselves. The self-preservation instinct is extremely powerful. People are tough. The laziest person will move mountains when his or her life is at stake. To make a person suicidal, something truly extraordinarily bad has to be going on. Now I say we should be looking at *that* if we want to actually save lives.

I also say we should be doing more than just 'saving lives'. We really should help people making the most of their lives. Hell, we should be stopping *outright wasting lives*.

The above is just my own view... I *would* like to hear other people's views also.

Okay, here's what I think. For what it's worth.

My great-aunt committed suicide several decades ago. She was a fine and well-loved woman, and I respect her reasons. She had just nursed her brother through a difficult illness until his death. Shortly afterward, she was diagnosed with the same fatal illness. She chose to end her life rather than force her family to go through this again. That was her decision, and it was made rationally.

The people who jumped out the windows of the World Trade Center in 2001 acted rationally, and in desperation. Watch the ending of the film 'Valkyrie'. General von Treskow committed suicide as part of accepting the consequences of his opposition to Hitler.

I believe in suicide prevention when the decision is state-based and not rational. A decision like that made in a state of panic, anxiety, paranoia-induced fear, or the sense of hopelessness that results from extreme depression is not a rational decision.

I'd say: you have to wait until you're feeling better before you allow yourself to make decisions like that. Brain chemistry shouldn't do it for you.

At least, that's what I think.

And no, I don't think Jesus turned my great-aunt away because she did what she did.

Hi Dmitri and thanks for that comment! I think today most Christians would no longer think suicides go to hell ... but I do think here in South Africa still many do. In the church I was raised in we thought like that, because suicide meant you died in a sin you could not repent ... in a condition of stubborn sinfulness. I don't know how many churches here still think that way. I do know that they do bury people who commit suicides properly and give them church funeral services.

But I do think it is a relatively new thing in the Christian church. The church father Augustine condemned it, and Thomas Aquinas condemned it, and for many centuries people who commit suicide could not be buried in a 'Christian' graveyard, and their relatives could not hold a church burial service. At times their property could even be confiscated. So what also happened in the light of this is that whenever possible relatives and friends tried to make a suicide look like it was something else; and also people who *attempted* suicide would try and hide this if possible.

I find this about the view of the Catholic church:


"The 1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church indicated that the person who committed suicide may not always be fully right in their mind; and thus not one-hundred-percent morally culpable: "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide." The Catholic Church prays for those who have committed suicide, knowing that Christ shall judge the deceased fairly and justly. The Church also prays for the close relations of the deceased, that the loving and healing touch of God will comfort those torn apart by the impact of the suicide."

(From wikipedia)

And I agree with that.

Now if this was said in 1997, were the view different before that? I think the views we have today came as a result of slow change over the last century or two and there's a lot of social inertia still from the earlier centuries.

I also wonder about protestant churches ... I think there will be more 'tolerant' views as with the catholic church and your own, but also many churches with views still traditional, i.e. suicides go to hell.

I *really* don't think such views are helpful.

All right, and one more thing: the problem with suicide prevention for someone in a state of the kind distress you describe is that the person *in that state* is by definition no longer rational and no longer capable of stopping her/himself from making a decision or taking action. If there is still a small remnant of control, it might be possible, but if the condition worsens beyond that point what is needed is *someone else* who can stop that person. If such a person is not handily nearby then what is necessary is to try and catch the problem before it escalates to that point.

Yeah, I know about Augustine and Thoams Aquinas. <laugh. Fortunately, where I grew up, nobody else had ever heard of them - and wouldn't have taken their word for anything.

People might be surprised, but the Bible doesn't say anything like that.

I agree - suicide as part of mental stress is a terrible problem. It's a part of disease, not a moral decision.

That's why a non-professional is so helpless. That's why there are people trained to deal with that danger, just as there are firemen and emergency medical technicians.

Hi again Dmitri! Over here there aren't 'professionals' that can be of immediate practical help. I did phone those 'lifeline' folks - as I said in the other thread, they are way off in Durban, and I ended up apparently being able to tell the man I spoke with a lot more than he knew! But anyways: I'd like to use this to again speak of the 'stigma' angle.

As I've said: over here recently in the protestant Christian churches the view of suicide was still very much a taboo thing and there is still a stigma of shame attached to it. Now if you remember ... I was stuck without a car. So, I could not go to see a doctor or psychiatrist or anyone unless I asked a friend to take me. But because of this stigma, I cannot bring myself to tell any friend of mine that I am contemplating suicide or in danger of suicide. If there was less of a stigma (and also, less of a stigma about mental health problems in general) then it would have been easier for me to ask someone to take me to a professional to help me.

So the social angle is *always* important - the attitudes of everyday normal average people are important because without social support the people vulnerable to this things can often not get to the professional help they need.

Willem, I don't disagree with anything you have said, it is succinct and accurate as always.

I think there is more than one kind of suicide. The kind you talk of where problems may well be insoluble and others where it is outside influences such as the ones you mention in the UK over benefit cuts.

The latter type of problem can be remedied and solved but only if help is asked for in the right quarter. Sometimes they are cries for help rather than serious attempts.

The kind you mention may have no solution and if problems become unbearable it is understandable, if medication doesn't work. I thought the soldier's explanation was a wonderful gift to his family and friends which would have given them some peace of mind.

There have been a couple of times in my life when it seemed to be a solution but I never went beyond the thought, and I would have missed so much good stuff(and some bad) if I had carried it out.

With regard to any bereavement I also believe that a large part of the grief is for ourselves not our dearly departed if we are honest.

I am aware of a husband and wife where the husband is very terminally ill, and the wife is distraught at the imminent loss of her husband. I think she will go soon after him, and after a long marriage it is the best outcome for them both, but others think that view is wrong.

I also believe that terminally ill people should have the right to say 'I have had enough, I want to go', again a view that is often disputed.

Maybe our views are coloured by our own experiencesas they should be, not by what others, or the law or religion states


Websailor

Willem, may I ask how the police got involved, if you couldn't bring yourself to ask a friend/neighbour to help?

Websailor

Hi Websailor! I'll respond to your previous posting in just a mo. But as for the police ... I didn't ask any friend or neighbour HERE for help, but I did ask for help by posting a journal entry here on h2g2. Someone who read it must have phoned the police, they said they spoke with someone in Britain. But I don't know who, since it wasn't Peanut and it wasn't you.

That is amazing, I am not sure it would have occurred to me that it was possible. I am glad someone was able to help.

Websailor

Right, Websailor, thank you for that considerate response! I, too, cannot find fault with what you're saying.

I feel the focus should be on preventing the suicides we can, and also ameliorating the mindsets that lead towards them.

For instance: how about getting rid of war? I think it is high time that we have another anti-war movement - certainly in the USA and in Britain. *IF* I am spared - I really am going to try and dedicate my life to trying to write about war and why it happens and how we can 'get over this phase' of our development as a species.

Then there are the austerity measures and other things related to economy. We humans are making a big mess of it. Economy is supposed to be a science! But where does economic theory show the kind of successes we see from real science such as physics and chemistry? I say something is wrong. It is another thing I'm going to try and investigate and write about.

And then there's mental illness. Now ... being still vulnerable myself I nevertheless feel there are things I've figured out. So again I would want to contribute to a greater understanding where that is concerned.

Then there are those incurable diseases - you both mention them. Well, I do think we could still work towards cures and towards ways of improving the quality of life of the afflicted, even in their last days. I do have experience about this, with my parents and all.

Speaking of which ... how are you coping these days Websailor?

Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt.

But what you said, Willem, made me think of something. I agree that it's terrible that you can't always find good help when you desperately need it.

What I meant by 'this needs a professional' was just that, though: even if someone needs help, he or she can't expect another person to know what to do. It's not like we can buy that kind of expertise with our first-aid kits, unfortunately.

It occurred to me that there are reasons why people are afraid to talk to a friend about that friend's mental health issues:

1. They're afraid it's catching. (I understand that.)
2. They're afraid to say the exact wrong thing. (Easy to understand.)
3. They're afraid to become entangled in a demanding situation they're not up to solving. (I can relate.)

To give you an example: Once, many years ago, I found myself on a rather terrifying ride down the Autobahn. My colleague, who was driving, had just completely lost it. He had become paranoid, and was accusing me of a number of things, such as trying to sabotage him with the boss. (Needless to say, this was the first I'd heard of it.)

At the same time, he was driving at about 90 mph down a GERMAN highway. I had to talk fast.

Desperately remembering what I knew about him (not much), I intuited that it was the unusually sunny weather and the failure of his blood pressure medication. For the next 20 miles, I spoke soothingly but incessantly, trying to talk him down. We got to our class in one piece.

The next day, the guy sought me out in the office. He apologised handsomely, and then - to my intense embarassment - hugged me. He said I'd saved his life. His doctor told him his BP was killingly high, and changed his meds.

I mopped my brow. I don't have ANY qualifications for doing something like that, but needs must when the devil drives.

Hi Dmitri, I don't think Websailor will mind, we've been having many such 'interrupted' discussions!

Anyways - yes what you say is right - but at the same time, mentally ill people *need* ordinary people to be able to deal with and interact with them without being afraid. And we need to be able to discuss our problems with someone else than doctors. Our problems can affect any area of our lives - and we don't have doctors on hand the whole day long. And also most of us most of the time are not immediate dangers to ourselves or to others. But we might still need help - advice, or just someone else's perspective on a situation. Now I understand most people know very little about schizophrenia - but I can explain a lot about it to people *if they would listen*. I just need someone to listen.

Also: I feel ordinary people need to have some basic idea about the different kinds of mental health problems ... things like depression, substance abuse, OCD, bipolarity, schizophrenia, phobias and anxiety disorders, and so on ... the basic info ought to be out there in society, so people can know when they, or their friends, need to find help. And also *short of* the situation where professional help is needed, there's a lot that people can do to help each other. But again to do this some basic info is needed. And I think this is not so hard, but stigmas in society make it harder.

No I don't mind in the least Dmitri and Willem,

Willem thanks for your kind enquiry. I am fine. I have 'down' days but nothing I can't shake myself out of. I try my best to kick the bad thoughts out but they do intrude on a daily basis, and in sleep.

To be honest, I wouldn't dare let things get me down when I see the problems you have. I have family and support if I ask for it or need it, but I don't. We have another older family member who lost her husband of 62 years just after I lost mine, and I feel her need is greater, as she misses him badly, and she didn't have the years of preparation that I had.

I agree with Dmitri on the reasons people are terrified of getting involved. We have a much better knowledge and understanding here of mental illness, but there are still people who shy away from it.

We are listening by the way.

The brain is an amazing thing but it can play havoc with us at times and I think understanding it is a slow business. My first encounters with dementia many years ago were frightening, but I understand it better now. I had not even heard about it then and my mother was called insane, which they would not say now. I often think that wrongly applied medication, too early, without sufficient investigation is a big problem here.

I don't think war will ever stop while greed is being fed on a daily basis, and part of me thinks that it might be Nature's way (I hesitate to say God's way) to keep the population down.

Think about it, if we were all 100% well, and didn't fight, the planet would be even more overrun than it is now. I think we can all do our bit to make things better, but it is not possible for one individual such as yourself to make a major difference. I saw a quote this morning which says pretty much that about war, but I have forgotten it for the moment. If I can find it I will mention it some time.

It looks like we are about to lose one of those rare human beings who did make a massive difference and may well continue to do so in death, but they are rare, and maybe just in the right place at the right time.

Keep talking, we will keep listening and you know you are free to say if we say anything which is not logical or rational to you. It is the only way any of us will learn.

Take care,

Websailor

*listens*
I haven't experienced suicide near me, only a distant acquaintance in my teens, years after I lost contact.

The thing that is the worst, I think, is that here was a human who suffered, and I didn't realise/didn't help/tried but couldn't help. To know that someone was in such pain, and wasn't helped away from the pain, but chose death.

So, yes, it's very much feeling sorry for oneself, at the same time as feeling sorry for the person who chose to die. Mourning the pain, but also realising that the person now isn't in pain.

I've had depressions, but not bad to the point of contemplating suicide. But logically, I can understand that someone feels this much pain, and that in that moment, that time in their life, death is relief. It's sorrowful and sad, and painful to know, but I think I can understand with my mind. I find it very hard to grasp with my emotions though, how heavy it must feel. It's too big for my heart.

I've also read somewhere, that talking about suicide may trigger suicide. But somehow, the discussion here feels different from what I imagine a triggering discussion would be like. I hope it is different.

I think 'discussions' such as go on on the Internet are more of the kind that deliberately encourages people to do it, like so many unsavoury things that go on today.

I think this discussion is among people who have suffered and those who try to understand. As Willem says people facing such deep seated problems need rational people around them as a sounding board to help balance their troubled view of the world and I think that is why this feels different.

I am sure some of the very unpleasant things that are said on some sites would not be tolerated here for a moment. Free speech is essential but with it comes responsibility not to do harm.

Websailor

Very true, that, Webbie. I appreciate what you and Milla have said.

Hi again everyone! Websailor, interesting that you mention responsibility in your last line there. That to me is the key and one of the things humanity is neglecting right now: responsibility! If we took responsibility more seriously, then we will not only not wage war, we also will not reproduce too rapidly and therefore not overrun the planet! I believe this is possible - I do think we as a species can learn to behave more responsibly. If you are skeptical - as I'm sure you are - think of this: we have existed on this planet as modern humans for 100 000 years. We've only been overrunning the planet over the past few centuries ... and it can't go on like this for much longer. It will be forced to stop one way or another. And a century or even a millennium is actually a very, very short period where planet Earth is concerned. The planet itself will stop us before we can do too much damage. And then: the planet itself will force us to learn to be responsible as well! But I think we can do it on our own *before* we need to be forced.

It all has to do with evolution and the evolutionary potential of humanity. It has to do with why we are here. Now in regard to this I have my ideas ... and they may be insane ... or not! I do have an incredible amount of knowledge about things like human psychology - because you can learn things from what goes wrong - you can learn more from failure than success. But anywauys: there's what I know of human psychology, then there's what I know about evolution, then there's what I know about art and creativity, then there's what I know about religion - which I haven't really gone into here because it is such a touchy topic - but I do know a lot about it. The sum total of this is that I think I know some very important things - and even if I am not right, I think I have ideas that with just a bit of fixing can be put right. SO ... just maybe I *am* in a position where I can teach people a thing or two. It only depends on whether I will get the opportunity to do it ...

Consider something: maybe the planet allowed us to 'explode' as we have for a very specific reason. Maybe there are greater forces in control of what's going on here.

But I can't go into all that now of course!

Milla, thank you very much for being around to speak with! And for trying to understand. I've known several suicidal people in my life, a few who have done it successfully, and currently have one friend who is seriously suicidal pretty regularly. My opinion: respectful and considerate discussion ALWAYS helps! I think Websailor is right ... so much talk on the 'net is the opposite of respectful and considerate. But I am really in need of people to help 'ground' me and to ask for feedback and perspective on things I'm worrying about. And also I can handle it if people have different ideas ... I am not some fragile thing that people should be afraid of touching! I don't take offense easily ... and also even in my worst moments I still have some rationality ... and also I will ask for help *before* things have escalated to the point where I've lost all control ... and all input at this point will rather help stabilize me than set me off.

So thanks again everyone!

Sorry Dmitri, I wrote that before seeing your posting! I appreciate your input very much as well, thank you!

I have come across some organisations in your country which are offering the suicide prevention services you are talking about, they also campaign to raise awareness of mental illness and to destigmatise it, they have set up community support groups,they showcase talents, people have shared their experiences in order that others can understand

Perhaps you could make use of the services and also get involved in a way that works towards to reaching your shared objectives?

I do think that in large part the conditions for wellness is about quality of life, having good friends, a range of relationships from the casual to the more committed, opportunities for social engagement and interaction, financial security, access to activities for health and pleasure, a pleasant environment in which to live, work and play

All of these contribute to peoples mental health.

Still the medical aspect of mental illness is also important so what Dmitri is saying about having professionals in the equation is essential part of maintaining health.

There is an issue with service provision and affordability in South Africa but changes have been afoot. With the building up of services and the capability to deliver health care and addressing issues of affordability so people have access to good quality health care in a fairer way

It is a mammoth undertaking, it takes time, but it does seem to me that there there has been much progress made and that the drive is there to continue making it.