h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi Lucinda,

Just a quick note to let you know that I've finished sub-editing your interesting entry on 'the politics of internet discussion'. - http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A671500

I will return the entry to the editors in a few days time, leaving you a short while to read it and discuss any changes.

One thing I can anticipate you wanting to discuss is my removing of all the gender-neutral pronouns.

As a linguistics student I personally disagree with the idea of inventing a gender-neutral pronoun. Artificially-invented language rarely works, language usually just takes the simplist route that's most generally applicable, so I can't see the pronouns catching on...

That's just personal opinion though. The main reason for removing the pronouns are for consistancy with the rest of the Guide (remember that any entries can be updated or added to, and other authors may not use the same pronouns), and for stylistic ease (unfamiliar pronouns detract from the message of the text).

I have done away with the pronouns by using 'they' (generally accepted as a substitute for a gender-specific pronoun) or by reworking the text.

I hope you won't be too unhappy with this...

Frankie Roberto

First of all, thank you for contacting me - I've always said it's the mark of the very best sub-eds that they deign to contact us mere mortals who just write the stuff...

I also briefly studied linguistics, though not as much as you no doubt. There, I was told that newly invented words certainly happen all the time (consider that dictionaries routinely add and delete words), but mostly for nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs. Prepositions and pronouns are apparently much more static, though not completely so.

(actually, I'm a little perplexed as to how a specific language like English could be anything BUT artificial. It's created by humans and it doesn't exist in nature - hence, it's artificial )

I think I'll ask in the Peer Review thread - see what they say there
-Martin

You've got me a bit there. It's true words are being invented (consider 'RAM' or even 'h2g2' - though you could argue they're acronyms).

The job of a lexicographer though is to analyse linguistic data and document the most-used words. They shouldn't actually invent words (though you have to wonder how many people really use 'to do a delia'...)

Let's not argue over what 'artificial' means...

I'm interested in why you use those new pronouns though - i've seen you use them in forums too. what's your reason behind it?

The problem with inventing a gender-neutral pronoun is that it's really introducing a whole new grammatical construct, difficult to really absorb into your ideolect naturally (especially in speech - how'd you pronounce them). There are also so many different proposals for a gender-neutral pronoun. My text book lists:

tey, co, E, ne, thon, mon, heesh, ho, hesh, et, hir, jhe, na, per, xe, po and person. !!!

Frankie

Do a search on the net for 'gender neutral pronouns FAQ' - the FAQ is pretty comprehensive on the issue. Actually, I'm switching from 'shi' to 'sie' after reading through that, and recalling lots of uses of 'sie' on usenet - whereas I've only seen 'shi' once.

The two most common sets of gender neutral pronouns are
* sie, hir, hir, hirs, hirself
* zie, zir, zir, zirs, zirself (less common, more recent)

The rest have typically been proposed by one person, and ignored by everyone else, they're not really relevant to my mind. Both those two have reasonably significant numbers of people using them (far more than 'doing a Delia', that's for sure... ). Barton here on h2g2 uses sie/hir, for example, as did LeKZ, and there may be others. In some places online they've become standard.

Oh, and I'm a firm believer in Orwell's ideas about language significantly shaping ideas, so I doubt you can have a properly gender-neutral society without gender-neutral language. But that's politics, and wouldn't come close to making me change without the other factors.

Pronounciation - I pronounce 'sie' as the German for she/they (cross between 'zee' and 'see'), and 'hir' a cross between 'hear' and 'hir'. It's not hugely relevant, because I've not come across them offline, so I don't bother. Online, they're common enough to be worthwhile.

Reasons - well, I continue to find the type of rewriting you need to avoid it ugly and artificial - it can produce some pretty tortuous sentences if you don't have a linguistics student doing it (). It also tends to lengthen sentences unnecessarilly. Using the plural to substitute for the singular makes things less clear, and means that you can use pronouns less. So when I came across hir in particular and sie to some extent I switched to them.

My colleagues at work, incidentally, continue to infuriate me by always referring to transcriptionists as 'she' and people who dictate text as 'he'.

What's an ideolect, exactly?

-Xanthia

Is it ok to post here and mourn the loss of the beautiful prononic constructions?

Ah well, not that bothered actually, rather liked 'shi' though. Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that secretly I was pronouncing it as 'she' (and 'hir' as 'her') in my head, of course

I think an ideolect is your own personal language. Like a dialect is where everyone in what I shall for the sake of arguement call a region speaks in a variation of the 'standard', your ideolect describes how how you use language in a distinctive way from everyone else, have your own pron and your own catchphrases/favourite words and whathaveyou, and though this will be similar to those around you, will be a bit different.

But I would be willing to have it explained better than that, as I'm not too sure on it myself (pretty please ). I rather like the idea that I have my own private version of English, though. It includes the word 'splendid' rather a lot. And a fair number of spelling mistakes.

This thread prompted me to write an entry on the subject here: A753833 - so now you know, Frankie