h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Having learned in many, painful ways that no thread is sacred -- least of all on your personal space -- I've resorted to making it sound as banal as possible. Of course, that won't work, and zillions of researchers will read it anyway, but I'm *trying* to make this as quiet as possible. (Which means, if you do find your way here, sundry researchers, and you feel the need to chip in -- bugger off! )


First of all, a polite request -- please don't jump down Della's throat if my eyes don't deceive me (again) and that was actually a compliment. Honestly, it takes a while to register! It only takes a quick reading, or one's eyes to be coloured by the harsh experience of weeks of, erm, 'campaigning', for one to take it the wrong way.

That done with, your campaign is actually the reason I'm here. Now, I don't want to re-start the Death-Threat thread, which is why I won't be posting a reply there. The reason I didn't post there BEFORE it was over was, simply, that I didn't have the time to read and reply to the umpteen potential replies I might get. And, once again, someone accused me of perpetuating the thread, though it seems I wasn't really needed.

Now, I'm only going to address a couple of points which you made, because I feel that you misunderstood my position somewhat.

I said that I wasn't really *interested* in the truth. You seem to have taken that in a rather passive sense, that I was expressing simple curiosity. Unfortunately, the subtlety of my meaning was lost on you, probably due to my bluntness. I was actually referring to interest in the sense of being actively concerned with something for my own benefit.

You see, here is where we have our differences. I don't believe it is in my *best interests* to discover the truth, because the truth (in this case) comes at a price. You, on the other hand, are repeatedly harrassing Della in order to somehow elicit this 'truth' you want me (and others) to see, perhaps in the belief that the end justifies the means.

Why don't I want to know the truth? Not because my view of the world is vastly distorted, and I stubbornly want to hold on to it. I didn't intend to investigate it because whatever the 'truth' is (yours, Della's, or anyone else's) I don't want it to come at the cost of harrassing another researcher. This leads on to my contention with your methods, which I'll explain now.

Az said that she didn't consider you 'expressing [your] opinion' to be against the House Rules. If that's all you were doing, I'd say that she was right. However, it's my belief that you were using the thread, both by merit of its title and its content, to distribute some kind of justice to Della -- as you said it, as a constant embarassment to her. Well, it is not your place to do this, and you do not have the right to apply excruciating pressure to one researcher in some sort of mission to make them see the light, or to make others see their 'true colours'.

On h2g2, we have an excellent safety mechanism. It all starts with a set of rules -- the House Rules -- in reference to which one can determine whether a certain post is acceptable. They serve as a sort of community benchmark. And if we feel that something falls below the mark, by breaking the rules, we can 'yikes' the offending posting in hopes that it will be removed or modified.

Further action can also be taken if an offender breaks the rules repeatedly, or in a particularly serious fashion. Deciding what action should be taken is the duty of the moderators, and, to an extent, the Editors.

Occasionally, the community is asked to take part in a decision of particular magnitude, ie. banning. Aside from that exceptional case, they are involved only in triggering a moderation decision, and not in deciding the outcome. Once the outcome has been decided, it is by and large final.

The kind of vigilante justice which you were administering via the D-T thread is not, on any level, involved in this process. So, on this count, I don't believe your behavior was appropriate, since Della had already received her judgement. However, I have a more concrete issue with your actions, which goes back to the very root of the whole process: the House Rules.

It is perfectly fine for one researcher to hold a grudge against another researcher. Usually, it would be suggested that they avoid each other, or try to resolve their issues quietly, but occasional fireworks are entirely to be expected.

What is NOT expected is for a researcher to go out of their way to confront them. For them to keep an issue going long after its reasonable expiry date, to follow them to their space and post to long-dead conversations in order to apply some excruciating pressure to them in hopes that they'll capitulate and apologise. To do so repeatedly, to provoke them intermittently, to declare their sins to the world, to malign them in unrelated conversations, to lurk in their space until they find something they can't restrain themselves from making a bitchy comment about and to publicly humiliate them. Regardless of whether you consider your behavior to be correct and above board, I believe that not only does it undermine the moderation process (which has plenty to complain about as it is!), it is harrassment, pure and simple, and condemned by the House Rules.

There are goodnes knows how many postings of yours which break the Rules in some way. I don't want to yikes them, because I don't believe it would be constructive -- at most, it would get you on premod, which would annoy the hell out of us all. Instead, I want to point out why I think you're breaking the rules, and why I take issue with what you're doing. We're both reasonable and intelligent people, and we're both quite capable of discussion without resorting to being childish. In the end, I asked for the first posting in the conversation to be hidden in the reasonable assurance that I would succeed out of pure exasperation; I didn't think it was fair to 'keep it going' when it was only increasing Della's distress, and therefore adding to what I saw as 'harrassment'. That is the only concession I have made.

Now, Della has apologised. It hasn't gotten rid of the bad vibes between you -- but it has at least calmed the situation down a little. That's a good thing. However, it was one of your 'ends' (one which,
you admitted, you never expected to see fulfilled), and I don't believe your 'means' are justified by it or any of your other intentions. She has been strongarmed into this apology; this cannot be called a sweet victory by any means. How do you justify repeatedly nagging away at someone's side, perpetrating the closest equivalent to online torture any site will allow (I refer to physical rather than statutory limitations)?

Hoo... I've said it once, and I'll say it again -- it simply isn't cricket.

- Jordan

PS: I've had a sleepless night and I simply don't have time to read over what I've wrote (too much work), so don't be suprised if you run into occasional incoherences. I'm sure you'll work them out.

Nothing to get excited about -- either he's unsubscribed already, or he's not subscribed to his own PS...

- Jordan

hi Jordan,

He is possibly just sparing you from a 'Hoovoolooing', but more likely he's just not interested.

You must have noticed by now that Della gives as good as she gets - or at least she doesn't just let things lie. Unfortunately or otherwise, Hoo has better debating skills than Della has (or you or I, for that matter) so she is always left looking like she can't back up the things she says. Which often she can't. So it *would* behove her to either think a bit more before posting on 'serious' threads, or at least have some back-up for what she says.

A question you might like to think about - why do you feel such a need to back Della up? You've also taken me to task about some things I've written in reply to some of Della's postings.

You may not like the way Hoo and blicky get on her case (and sometimes I also find this a bit tiresome) but you also have to see how she creates these situations for herself.

I also talk with Della by email and her RL self is not exactly the same as her h2g2 persona - which could probably be said of all of us.

This is what I keep trying to explain to Della. That even though 'Della and az' might go at it tooth and nail over certain topics this doesn't mean this is how I see her as her RL self.

Anyhow, just my for what it's worth.


az

<quote><quote>'He is possibly just sparing you from a 'Hoovoolooing', but more likely he's just not interested.'

That's a shame. He was very, very interested in harassing Della, and making her pay for her actions. For him to be suddenly uninterested in his own behaviour would leave him quite the hypocrite. I seriously hope you're wrong.


'A question you might like to think about - why do you feel such a need to back Della up?'

That's a no-brainer. Surely you're aware that I've been backing her up for almost a year. Do you really think I've got no idea why?

You say that she 'gives as good as she gets'. Well, that simply isn't true. It started, really, on the 'Fact or Fiction' thread, when she made some comments about homosexuality. She was roundly chastised for that, and to an extent I don't believe it was effective. Instead of encouraging her to rethink her position, she felt like she was being persecuted.

Of course, that wasn't the (primary) intention, but I decided that if nobody was noticing the effect they were having, I would try and respond as reasonably as I could, and at the same time try to ameliorate her critics.

Unfortunately, it didn't stop there. The 'Adele' fiasco came soon afterwards, and Della was rather soundly beaten for her part in it. I was quite upset about the whole affair, because it demonstrated how easily hootoo could become an intensely negative and uncivilised place. You'll notice that I couldn't quite decide my position on that one. I was frustrated with almost everyone involved in the incident, and it shows in the conversations I've had about it.

Things didn't finish there. Member continued to persecute Della, as did Blicky. While you try to be impartial, you were still more likely to agree with Member and Blicky than the others. The whole thing reached a lofty peak when Della typed the so-called 'death-threat' on behalf of her son. Nobody, it seems, was going to drop their vendettas, and I was disturbed to notice that, while everyone was keen to advise that Della apologise and stop aggravating things, few of them were willing to ask anyone else to swallow their pride and bile, and just leave it.

It goes on. The ranks of Della's detractors have swelled, whereas Della has only her son Bain to speak for her. Della is attacked in virtually every conversation she has with blicky and Hoo -- in fact, blicky was asked to stop it by another researcher, who was frustrated that she had to unsubscribe every time Della joined a conversation because he would follow her soon afterwards!

You say that Hoo 'has better debating skills than Della has (or you or I, for that matter)'. And so, you expect Della to support herself against Hoo, Member, blicky and the more limited abuse from other researchers, with only occasional support from you and the vitriolic assistance of her son Bain? Bain and myself apart, nobody wants to go any further than being 'neutral' towards her.

Who else will actually stand up for her when she's being harrassed? Peckish didn't. Alfster didn't. Sometimes you will, but in this instance you didn't. kea was the only one to even consider the possibility of responding to her. And so, I'm left almost the only one willing to voice any opposition to how she is being treated.

So there you have your answer, az. My conscience will not allow me to stand idly by while Della is attacked. The assault became personal long ago and it follows her all over the site like a bad smell. Just call me deodorant.


'but you also have to see how she creates these situations for herself.'

No she does not. People here are perfectly capable of restraining themselves from shocking excesses of venom and spite, but they choose not to. I've been accused of 'keeping it going' by trying to defend her, but nobody seems willing to ask anyone to use a little self-control.


Once again, hopefully you are wrong about Hoo, and he considers it as important to evaluate his own behaviour as he does that of others.

- Jordan

Hello deodorant!

I have often backed up Della. I have also contested things she's posted. Fair play, I reckon.

It simply depends on what she posts.

A year or so ago I was more emotional about Della, but she and I started talking - first on our own chat thread and later by email - and I think I understand her better now. We both decided to let past misunderstandings lie (though Bain still tries to stir them up, for some reason). Both of us (Della and I) - back then - said things we are now sorry for. I think it is quite nice that Della and I have found a place where we have a bit of trust between us.

Thing is, it's not often easy to be hootoo friends with Della as well as with Hoo and blicky. Because I like them all. I end up being caught in the middle sometimes. I quite like Hoo, I really love blicky (my little bro!) and I have learned to like Della thanks to her efforts to speak to me elsewhere. I used to think she was *only* her h2g2 persona but she has shown me otherwise.

Meanwhile . . . vendettas? persecution? Ah, I don't see it that way myself. Just some people stuck in certain things. Nothing as nasty as you suggest.

And to be honest, whenever a 'Hoo-Della' thing gets going on a thread, I reckon most researchers attempt to ignore it as just 'one of those things'.

<>

I can imagine that you do, but no, I've never really understood it.

Whatever . . .


az

'Meanwhile . . . vendettas? persecution? Ah, I don't see it that way myself. Just some people stuck in certain things. Nothing as nasty as you suggest.'

That's how Della sees it. And I believe that following Della around counts as a 'vendetta'. Hopefully it's over, but I still want to know why Hoo behaved the way he did. Considering that he was willing to bring up an issue about a year old, I think I'm being quite reasonable. As a matter of fact, I'd go so far as to say that he owes Della an apology. And once again, I don't expect to see an apology in the forseeable future.


'Thing is, it's not often easy to be hootoo friends with Della as well as with Hoo and blicky.'

You're telling me!


'I can imagine that you do, but no, I've never really understood it.'

Oh, come on! I just explained it at great length!

At any rate -- you must find Hoo positively baffling!


'Whatever . . .'

Shame on you azahar, I thought you missed the 'whatever' generation. Do you secretly listen to Britney Spears as well?


Humour aside -- I'm genuinely interested in seeing how Hoovooloo responds.

- Jordan

What is the 'whatever' generation? Seems I miss a lot. Must have something to do with being SO OLD!!!

<>

In fact, I find him very straightforward. No problem there. At least, not for me.

I have only bothered to find out more about Della because I didn't like how we were relating here on h2g2. And, as I have said, I think we have come to an understanding about past misunderstandings.

Since Hoo seems to have unsubbed from this thread I reckon you'll be waiting a long time for any reply from him.

Meanwhile, I'm just here to talk to you.

And to say - why aren't you getting any sleep???


az

<>

Of course, I have not stood up for when she has been CHALLENGED on her consistent lies and untruths that she never apologises for (I am still waiting on one from a few months ago when she called me gullible about stating well known factual information). I will stand up for her now if required on the Death Threat incident but only that as that is the only one I know that she has apologised for (hearing that she did apologise for a homosexual slight is a great thing to know - Much respect Della).

<< I was quite upset about the whole affair, because it demonstrated how easily hootoo could become an intensely negative and uncivilised place>>

These comments are general:

It demonstrated that lying and not apologising is not something that is considered civilised on hootoo or anywhere else. Hootoo has a lot of very robust and rough discussion which makes it a great place to have open discussions on things. This is reduced when people continually lie and if it means that the amount of examples of people lying builds up over time then it is a positive thing that people are made to either apologise or stand up for themselves. This is one of the places (unlike RL) where you cannot hide from your behaviour and sweep it under the carpet and carry on as if you have done nothing wrong. If you are happy for lies and untruths to go unchallenged then fine but a lot of us despise lies and deception. As Az has said ones persona on Hootoo can be different to RL and it comes across as shallow, deceitful, unapologetic, brash, egotistical, insulting, common, chavish etc then they have no-one to blame but themselves if they get some stick (a big mix of a lot of persona's in there ). (I am hoo I am here as in RL really - can't be bothered and it smacks of deception - oh I *am* less beligerant, far more fair, less sarcastic and more giving than in real life.)

<>

As I say there was little to defend her going by the facts and since you did not wish to know the truth your defence was empty...it now has some ammunition for next time.

And I hope you are CFC-free.

'Fraid he's been rather 'busy' with me Jordan.
I love h2 but it's not the only thing in the world.

And I'm with Az on this issue.babes.

Ice.